Pro Triathletes: Some Lessons and Learnings from TBI

SystemAdmin · January 2016

Pro Triathletes: Some Lessons and Learnings from TBI

Pro triathletes: your value is under attack from all sides of the triathlon industry. Learn what industry leaders said, and what you need to do.

Read the full story here

Fleck · January 2016

"Did I entertain?
Did I educate?
Did I inspire?"

Gold!

Look up any article on the basics of Marketing, and you will see the above plainly laid out. It's marketing-101 stuff. Yet, many Pro Triathletes, and indeed many others on the business side of this sport don't seem to understand this. It's critical to, "success"!

Oh yes . . and be polite, and say "Thank You" to just about everyone!

Brooks Doughtie · January 2016

@Ryan Heisler good article. Im not really sure there is an point to PTU (or PTA or whatever you want to call them) when the sport is setup like it is. Doesn't seem like it really will work and while may be able to get in front of race companies, I'm pretty sure the top names get meetings with WTC/challenge now. Seems like it's a good "idea" that in reality doesn't have the setup or firepower to make changes.

Phalangical · January 2016

Not so sure I agree that the PTU is not a union. A labor union by definition is an organized association of workers, often in a trade or profession, formed to protect and further their rights and interests. Now you could probably argue that the PTU isn't protecting or furthering it's members rights and interests, and I'd agree with you up to this point. As a proud union worker I absolutely believe it's the professional triathletes right to organize, but this PTU feels haphazard and unorganized.

BW_Tri · January 2016

I don't agree with everything here @Ryan Heisler , but still a solid read and article. The PTU was able to get me a paycheck after not being paid for over 120 days, so my $150 has been well spent thus far. There is a lot of work to be done, a name change is a great idea. But telling pros to stay completely away I disagree with. You are either going to be part of the solution and get involved and voice your opinion, or you are going to continue to bitch and do nothing, seems like a lot of people are just sitting there doing nothing, and expecting change. Not going to happen. I think a lot of people care way too much about themselves rather than the long term growth of the sport for professionals, and that is why they are not getting involved. Just my observation.

And if you want examples of who are doing things right and who to follow, look no further than @Cody Beals and @Eric Lagerstrom , people could learn a thing or 2 by just following them..............

Ryan Heisler · January 2016

@Phalangical look under the National Labor Relations Board definitions as well as case law. If you're not an employee, you don't have the same ability to collectively bargain, etc. In this case, it's a professional trade organization, which limits some of their reach.

@BW_Tri glad to hear that they did something productive. I have a massive issue with Rich's conflict of interest, and the fact that he couldn't bother to go out to TBI. They needed someone there to help tone down the rhetoric of "what's the value of a pro at my race or as a sponsored athlete as compared to an age-grouper who'll do anything for a t-shirt?" Rich was offered a hotel room and a free registration to the conference. Not acceptable to not go.

I'm telling people to stay away until they figure out what it is they legally can and can't do, and when Rich discloses his conflict of interest issue. After that, I think a professional trade organization is what's needed. It's worked in most other major individual sports. It should work for triathlon.

Bennett had another good point, which I agree with: there needs to be a collection of folks at the top who agree to put their self-interests aside to make it worthwhile.

BW_Tri · January 2016

@Ryan Heisler - I will bring this up and see if Rich Allen will come on here and address it.

I am not the only one that has been helped with the prize money issue. Could I have sorted it myself? Sure, but it takes a TON of time, so just sending him a simple email and having him sort it out and nag the RD was a huge help.

As for the conflict, not sure what you are referring to, I know he has represented a few atheltes as an agent/manager, but not sure of anything else. Not sure what his current roles are with other athletes.

I was hoping the PTU Board is exactly what Bennett is saying in your last point, and I think a few have that mind set, but only time will tell.

Ryan Heisler · January 2016

The conflict is that he is a personal agent for members of the board.

I'm curious with regard to the prize money issue whether you had a limited representation agreement with their house counsel or not; otherwise, it technically opens up a whole host of other issues. Because they aren't a union and they don't have a collective bargaining agreement, they really can't do this without an attorney-client relationship.

cathcam · January 2016

Ryan, Woah.... hold on a minute hoss... Did you think to actually contact Richard and ask him about attending TBI, especially when he didn't show up?

Richard and I exchanged emails and discussed this on the phone, in the lead up to TBI. I was willing to advocate getting him a speaking slot, or participation in a panel, as I did with Sara Gross.

It depends what role you think Richard is taking in the short term and start-up of the PTU. I've known Richard since he was a Pro in the UK, and was delighted to put my name forward to help when he reached out. Richard isn't trying to be a leader. He is NOT trying to be Jimmy Hoffa... my way or the concrete boots. He is spending time to try to correlate a group of individuals and find out what needs to be done. In our discussions, he wasn't prepared to come to TBI as he didn't have an agreed set of objectives to go after.

As for using John Cobb as an illustration of whats wrong with Pro's... he said his best investment was just paying party girls to show up at races and have fun as a way of gaining interest in his brand.

I would have preferred it not to have been called a union. But we've had PROTA and that didn't achieve much, run by athletes, for athletes... at least in this instance Rich has been giving time as a non-athlete to make sure that there is a collective agreement on the problems and priorities.

You may know what you want solved, and by staying away, you may, or may not get what you want. One of the things the PTU needs to do is to agree a policy on how they are going to act, how transparent they are going to be, how they'll organize and communicate. Again, if you are not part of that discussion, you can't complain about the outcome.

Mark Cathcart, PTU Advisor.

Brent_R · January 2016

"he wasn't prepared to come to TBI as he didn't have an agreed set of objectives to go after."

This organization launched ~July, 2015. In ~6 months the Board couldn't agree on a set of objectives for, arguably, the most important trade conference in their industry. That's more than a little troubling.

Eric Lagerstrom · January 2016

@BW_Tri

Thanks for the nod, I appreciate it. Congrats on your Dubai result by the way! Stoked for you dude.

My two cents on the whole value of pros thing is that if we do indeed show some value, companies are quick to respond. Without naming names or quoting numbers, I can say that my financial situation has significantly improved this year over last year, and I have some new partners that are extremely excited to be working with a pro athlete! This is super encouraging, and all it took was me approaching them with idea after idea of how I could offer them value. Maybe 1/3 of my ideas stick or ever come through, but the point is that getting proactive is the only way to go. Yes, it's a lot of work, but it's paying off.

I think a lot of pros assume that the marketing department will call them with some great way that they're going to leverage them, and that's not the case unless they're winning Kona or already have some serious social media momentum going.

If we all find our "thing" that makes us valuable or just a little different (and tell that story), then we're all potential marketing outlets for the myriad of endemic and non-endemic companies interested in triathlon.

I don't know if the PTU route is the way, or if we can just collectively agree to raise the bar, but I'm hopeful either way.

BrandonMarshTX · January 2016

I don't know. The whole name thing seems an issue and a complete non issue for me. What is it filed under for taxation purposes? I read on the internet, and it must be true, that there are 2 different types of filings for union and trade organization. Or is it simply an LLP/C whatever?

I haven't joined the PTU. I'm not sure If I would join as a supporter or athlete since I'm basically retired. If I were to join as a supporter I'd want to know what my money were being spent on. You know, a trip to TBI or something. $150 is reasonable.

I 'helped' out and sat in on a call a couple of years ago. Tried to herd some cats on the equality issue. Tried to do some good, considered trying to do 'more' and got a curveball thrown at me. It's thankless.

I think it is 'convenient' to say I'm not a socialist. And then equally 'convenient' to say but we need a collection of folks at the top. Semantics and conflicts aside, this seems like a pretty good group of folks at the top...

http://www.protriunion.com/#!directors/c15kb

I traded some emails with Rich. He didn't want to engage on 'forums'. It takes thick skin sometimes, especially given his role and the aforementioned name and possible conflict/representation issues. I would encourage someone, bueller?, to get online and talk. I suggested the pro only forum here to engage those on the fence. Crickets.

Ryan Heisler · January 2016

@cathcam chatted with a few people, including those at TBI. He was listed on the panel for legal issues, but according to many sources (including Jack Caress), Rich backed out.

At the very least, why on Earth wasn't he there to at least start or continue relationships with some of these people? Race directors aren't at Interbike.

The union name is a problem in setting expectations for members and those joining.

I at least applaud you for coming on and noting that you're an adviser for PTU. That's a much stronger start and presence for going with some dialogue.

EmilyCocks · February 2016

2nd at IMAZ in 8:52.

Phalangical · February 2016

@Ryan Heisler agreed that the independent contractor "athletes" in this situation don't fall under the NLRA but that is a fairly narrow minded view of unions and collective bargaining. In fact because these athletes are independent contractors and not legally protected when it comes to things like pay, FMLA, unemployment, pension, etc.... gives them even more of an incentive to unionize and call themselves as such. At least it should in my opinion. I do agree that the PTU seems to a lack any organization or agenda, and would not join if I was currently in a position to. That being said I see a very real need for a professional representation for independent contractors especially when the groups paying their bills are groups like WTC and others who have made it very clear that they don't care about professional athletes.

cathcam · February 2016

Ryan Heisler said:
@cathcam chatted with a few people, including those at TBI. He was listed on the panel for legal issues, but according to many sources (including Jack Caress), Rich backed out.

I've been attending TBI since it started as Triathlon America 6-years plus ago, and while Jack might have liked Rich to attend, he was never on any agenda that I saw, and based on the fact I discussed it with him back in November, it's inaccurate to say he backed out, he never accepted. I'm not part of the TBI "circle jerk" as Ben would have it, so can't comment further except to say if you didn't discuss it with Rich and we never discussed anything, we'll never agree. If you believe that pro's should behave like some form of indentured servants then a lot of what the TBI people are saying makes a lot of sense, I don't.

Ryan Heisler · February 2016

Phalangical said:
@Ryan Heisler agreed that the independent contractor "athletes" in this situation don't fall under the NLRA but that is a fairly narrow minded view of unions and collective bargaining. In fact because these athletes are independent contractors and not legally protected when it comes to things like pay, FMLA, unemployment, pension, etc.... gives them even more of an incentive to unionize and call themselves as such. At least it should in my opinion. I do agree that the PTU seems to a lack any organization or agenda, and would not join if I was currently in a position to. That being said I see a very real need for a professional representation for independent contractors especially when the groups paying their bills are groups like WTC and others who have made it very clear that they don't care about professional athletes.

There is no bound of collective bargaining nor any reason for any race director or national governing body to negotiate simply due to the independent contractor issue.

Large trade associations: PGA Tour, WTA, ATP, etc. work. But you'll notice the key "A" in each of them: association. Not union.

@cathcam I don't see a reason to doubt the sources I have in re: Rich's attendance.

That being said, you being here to discuss PTU is a welcome addition to the community and needed.

I want pro triathletes to be able to have a collective voice. However, based on the way PTU was launched, the complete "we're not a labor union but we're still a union!" mindset, and that Rich is the agent for a few members of the board creates a conflict of interest that in most professional organizations would be unsustainable suggests a very long road to build for PTU.

I much prefer races with professional athletes at them. I think pros are vital to the sport. But there's a lack of "professionalism" in dealings from all sides of the industry (including Cobb's comment about his tent. I had a one-on-one later which is where the quote from the article comes from). We're an (allegedly) $2.8 billion industry that should be larger than just the sales of running shoes and apparel ($3 billion plus) in the US.

Phalangical · February 2016

Ryan Heisler said:

There is no bound of collective bargaining nor any reason for any race director or national governing body to negotiate simply due to the independent contractor issue.

Large trade associations: PGA Tour, WTA, ATP, etc. work. But you'll notice the key "A" in each of them: association. Not union.

You are arguing semantics. The name is less important than the goals of the union or association. There are countless unions that go by the name of association, I am a member of NATCA, we are a member of the AFL-CIO. There is no reason a group of people with similar goals shouldn't group together to accomplish those goals. It's silly to think that there is no negotiating going on within the PGA, WTA, etc.. because they call themselves associations and not unions.

Ryan Heisler · February 2016

Semantics, my friend, are what the law is entirely about in this instance. Unions are very specific legal constructs. They apply in limited circumstances.

If you are not an employee, you don't have collective bargaining rights against these groups. Which means that PTU needs to be powerful enough to sway its membership in certain instances.

Let me give you an example of what PTU needs strength to have happen in a hypothetical situation:

WTC re-institutes the finishing time rule for prize money. E.g., if you finish with a time outside of 5% of the winner's time: sorry, you're not going to make cash. This disproportionately will impact the middle tier professionals (lower-tier/developmental folks rarely make it in the cash anyways; top tier will likely be within 5%). This also impacts 70.3 pros more than 140.6 pros.

PTU members decide that this is a slap in the face to professionals and therefore should not race WTC events in protest. (Precedence: the boycott in Kona over prize money; ITU pros boycotting over non-equal pay to the female field).

Would PTU be able to enforce a boycott? How? What about non-members?

Race directors, outside of good will, have no incentive to negotiate at this point. (I think, though, that RDs would love it if PTU could get to that point.)

KBG · February 2016

Phalangical said:

Ryan Heisler said:

There is no bound of collective bargaining nor any reason for any race director or national governing body to negotiate simply due to the independent contractor issue.

Large trade associations: PGA Tour, WTA, ATP, etc. work. But you'll notice the key "A" in each of them: association. Not union.
You are arguing semantics. The name is less important than the goals of the union or association. There are countless unions that go by the name of association, I am a member of NATCA, we are a member of the AFL-CIO. There is no reason a group of people with similar goals shouldn't group together to accomplish those goals. It's silly to think that there is no negotiating going on within the PGA, WTA, etc.. because they call themselves associations and not unions.

You seem to be missing the point -- because pro triathletes aren't employees, they can't collectively bargain (and to your earlier point because they're not employees FMLA, Title VII, PDA, Worker's Comp, etc. do not apply to them). While PTU can enter into negotiations with various organizations, it cannot bind individuals who are not in privity, nor does it have the clout to impose standards on anyone (e.g. entering into an agreement with WTC that only PTU members will be permitted to race WTC events).

The issue isn't semantics. The issue is understanding the limitations of the landscape, defining your carrots and sticks and then working to accomplish what actually can be accomplished (and then building on those accomplishments). Unless PTU has the support of 80% + of pros and those pros are willing to boycott (think Avignon in 1989) it needs to do a better job setting an agenda and managing expectations.

cathcam · February 2016

Bingo. Thanks @KBG . The only way the PTU will know which road to travel down, is by finding out who will travel with them on the journey. There is absolutely no question much needs to be done, including potentially a name change, until then nothing will happen. If they can't get agreement from the members they have, they'll never be able to attract more members who agree with what they want to do and never achieve critical mass.

PROTA was given financial assistance by USAT, and it never went anywhere as far as I can see. In this instance it's a grass roots effort, funded only by good will and memberships fees, and yet everyone is expecting instant results and jumping all over Rich for not appearing at TBI and delivering demands. Maybe spending the meager PTU resources on a trip to TBI when objectives etc. were not agreed wasn't the best way thing to do. Figure $300 airfare, $600 hotel, and $150 on registration and you've got close to $1000 with incidentals. Add that to either lost earnings for Rich, or ask him to take a vacation day. While @ryan can argue Rich has a conflict of interest, either way its costing him, or the PTU would have to pay his salary as well, which bumps the cost up even more.

TBI have been banging on about pro's since 2011, as far as I'm aware, they've never offered to engage in resolving the issues as TBI see's it. It should be understood in that context that it actually benefits TBI to have a divided professional community, because they don't have to pay more than they have to, and TBI members are not required to negotiate on what ever basis. This is completely wrong headed thinking and is partly why triathlon has never really advanced in the US.

For all those who were around at the start of the sport to look in their rear view mirror and see how much better they could have done things, the mistakes they have made, the lessons they learned and then project them onto todays young professionals who operate in a much more competitive environment, and demand they do better without even offering a framework in which the professionals can operate is unconscionable. Who is the chicken, and whom the egg?

Brooks Doughtie · February 2016

and jumping all over Rich for not appearing at TBI and delivering demands. Maybe spending the meager PTU resources on a trip to TBI when objectives etc. were not agreed wasn't the best way thing to do. Figure $300 airfare, $600 hotel, and $150 on registration and you've got close to $1000 with incidentals. Add that to either lost earnings for Rich, or ask him to take a vacation day. While @ryan can argue Rich has a conflict of interest, either way its costing him, or the PTU would have to pay his salary as well, which bumps the cost up even more.

--------

We hear all the time that in order for this to work for pros, they have to finally give up a little for their own needs for the betterment down the road.

It's just not going to happen, for the exact reason you just described why Rich or anyone w PTU wasn't there. They have to be paid in one way or the other to make things happen.

How many people are willing to give up "theirs" in order to help the bigger cause? I can't think of many instances where people willing take hits for the good of others. Sure some rich people do, but if your job/career/money is on line, it's very hard to expect people to not think about themselves. This explaination is exactly why pros likely won't be able to come together for the "good" of the professional triathlete. When the leader of PTU isn't willing to "take one for the team" and attend this conference after apparently being invited, how is anyone else likely to. And I'm not saying PTU should. It's just really what we are dealing with.

So it's easy to say these pros need to group together and not think of themselves, but I'll ask when does that actually occur in real life?

ETA: maybe the TBI isn't the right place but I ask what place is? From an outsider prospective the lack of members showing up puts a negative light on PTU, the whole "perception is reality".

And this isn't really a knock on PTU as a demonstration that very few instances will people give up their own needs for the betterment of the whole. With Tri prize purse so shallow, it's such an uphill battle for the pros to group together. I'm hoping that race series like MLT are successful so that the pro triathlete can be viewed more favorable. They "deserve" better, and hopefully PTU can pull together and increase their $$ appeal.

Ryan Heisler · February 2016

@cathcam I don't think Rich's role there should've been much more to introduce himself more in his current role and capacity, and to start potentially networking further with both sponsors (which he's been seeking for PTU since the beginning).

I think we all agree: some change needs to happen, from both pros and the "industry" alike.

KBG · February 2016

@Brooks Doughtie you make an excellent point. In sports, unions and trade associations have only succeeded when athletes (usually older, well respected athletes who have already made a mark) are willing to give up some of what's "theirs" for the good of all athletes -- baseball and golf are good examples. In all the examples I've looked at there has to be an element of altruism at the get go. It like what I tell clients when they go into mediation -- you know that the mediation was successful if both sides had to give something up. In order for a pro organization to be successful, all sides are going to have to give something up.

cathcam · February 2016

This is going nowhere... we have no idea how much time Rich has already given up or been paid for doing PTU work.

As for Pro's doing things for the greater good, it's happened a bunch of times, look how many pro's do go to races, do do things for RD's and sponsors and don't really get fairly compensated for it, they are doing it because they believe it will. An organized home stay, isn't fair compensation, for that matter a hotel room at the race hotel isn't either if its a big race...

On the organizational examples, I can think of a couple, as @kbg mentioned, Avignon; also the UK Pro(test) lead by Sian Brice and if I remember correctly, Simon Lessing back in 2000 when the likes of Tim Don and Jody Swallow were juniors and one Richard Allen was a signatory. http://www.tri247.com/article_394.html

Kelly O'Mara · February 2016

Can I just say something that may have absolutely no larger point or relevance: If I was a pro athlete, you know what sounds super terrible and shitty? Having to always be a brand instead of a person, and needing to always be "on." Playing with small children before a race? Ugh, God, they're sticky and probably sick. Talking to random strangers when I'm dead tired from training? Yep, definitely what I want to do when I can't even get up from laying on the ground here. Needing to worry about if everything I post on Twitter is my best authentic branded self? Never getting to call someone an idiot because I'm worried it'll reflect badly on my sponsor? Eh, is it worth it.

I'm not saying I don't get the need to be more than just an athlete, but it's not like that's necessarily what these athletes are good at in the first place. And it's not like that even sounds appealing from their perspective (or my perspective, whatever). I'd, honestly, probably be like 'screw it, I want to race fast and be myself and fuck the rest of the bullshit.' (Which is probably why I'd be a terrible professional athlete.)

Ryan Heisler · February 2016

@Kelly O'Mara honestly, the calling someone an idiot brashness of Starky is part of the reason why he's popular. Something to stand out with.

I think you've hit something with regard to "what they're good at in the first place." You can be inspiring in a performance. You can be educational if you give a clinic (or, help him, Rapp with some of his technical articles). You can be entertaining on social media. Figure out which of those things you're good at and really put some time into it.

But the same is holding true in running: you're not getting a good deal anymore for just performances, unless you are absolutely world-class. So you've got to show some other reason to stand out from the crowd.

Aaron Webstey · February 2016

@Kelly O'Mara at least you'd have gotten to the point of understanding the branding/messaging/ambassadorship expectations that people have of you, even if you chose to ignore them some or all of the time. For a good long while in my career, I just thought once you were a pro, people should start wanting to give you shit and do everything for you. I don't know if that attitude is still prevalent, but it was definitely not uncommon back then.

Zach Miller · February 2016

If a triathlon professional thinks they can just race and make a living, they better be winning kona every year because that doesnt work, even the big sports athletes take time out of their day and do interactions with the general public

BrandonMarshTX · February 2016

Too many to tag, and we're in circles.

Ryan/KBG? One person saying semantics is everything and the other saying it isn't (and is). 'A more perfect union.' 'Union between a man and woman'. Union has been used in so many ways. For now, can't we just deal with it and push the org forward without banging on the name? Pretty please? Sounds like unless the PTU board agrees to change it, we (the collective we) are stuck with it until the new board (2017 I think) comes in and votes a name change.

Mark, we've had so many conversations about this. I have wanted to go to TBI, mainly to see what it was about. I didn't have an expense account. I could have written it off, but see earlier comment somewhere that write offs don't pay the rent at the time. PROTA had a decent chance after USAT funded it and we all funded it with extra pro registration money. I'm sure we can ask 6 ex-board members and get 6 different answers why it failed. This I know, I talked with 6 and there were few consistent elements as to why it failed.

KellyO. I worked corporate America before racing pro. I had to do crap I didn't want to do. Sorry, not sorry every job has BS. But, it's part of it. As was pointed out to me on a private email trail...the check writer can expect 'more'. I think that there should be somewhat of an industry expectation, but until there's a group there won't be.

Also pointed out to me. You get good, you get a lot of stuff, and suddenly you're pro and expected to not-f-up. Or, you're ok and expected to do a lot of things that might keep you from getting really good to get a lot of stuff, so you stay ok because you don't get enough stuff and have to do all the other things to try to get more stuff. Or, you're just an f-up and you get a lot of stuff because people think that's so cool. And everything in between. What's wrong with that system?

I'm not sure what the top of the top are going to give up in this case? I guess I need to re-up until 2017 and join so that I can see what the chatter is. Is the PTU asking for a %age of prize money? A cut of the salaries to spread it out? What is the 'socialism' other than the potentially negative connotation of the name 'union'? Prize money redistribution has been an issue. The top few are against it, overwhelmingly the rest support it even those who are very near the top. This has gone nowhere. This has been the main topic of 'socialism' discussed when I had conversations.

cathcam · February 2016

Kelly O'Mara said:
Having to always be a brand instead of a person, and needing to always be "on." Playing with small children before a race? Ugh, God, they're sticky and probably sick."

Interestingly, notice how everyone was fawning over Greg Bennett wearing a suit... instead of showing up like a pro triathlete, dressed as a sandwich board aka NASCAR driver covered in logos?

I would assert there are two reasons for this. One Greg Bennett can afford to wear nice clothes following his successful short course career, and two. he recognizes he is now his own brand. Witness Andy Potts in the panel session at TBI 2-years ago, the only participant that was a professional triathlete, and also the only person dressed like a NASCAR driver. When the TBI Illuminati speak or participate in panels, do they wear the race kit, t-shirts and logos of their events?

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