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Sufferfest 4DP

MattMatt Member, Administrator
edited October 18 in Main
Anyone use The Sufferfest? I stopped after they switched to a subscription-based app only since I bought many of their original videos.


Andy Coggan (co-author of Training and Racing with a Power Meter) is a bit peeved on ST and in the comments of the article on Bike Radar.


Comments

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    simonsen77simonsen77 Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    Same. I have a bunch of videos, but never used the app.

    Thinking of using the trial next month. The four elements seems curious.
    Mattfyrehaar
    First #BAAW Badge Recipient
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    WHY DO I ALWAYS CLICK THE LINK MY EYES ARE BURNING AND MY STOMACH HURTS

    Will be interested to hear how this goes. Trying to figure out if I'm going to do Zwift this winter or not.
    M_Waremaggierusimonsen77abussey1
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    Tad_MachrowiczTad_Machrowicz Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    Holy Schnikes! That ST thread got out of control. Unbelievable.
    I've now decided that I must take a stand. For the next two weeks of skipping my bike workouts, I will exclusively skip Sufferfest workouts, and simultaneously not upload my skipped workouts to my TP account.
    AaronWebsteykjrunninMattAlexSmaggierusimonsen77PreachSwansonMartin

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    simonsen77simonsen77 Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    From what I’ve read so far, AC seems to be following the Rapp method of using ST forums for image management.
    MattTad_MachrowiczfyrehaarmaggieruPevashishDauldhrKenElPescadoPelado
    First #BAAW Badge Recipient
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    simonsen77simonsen77 Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    Now having read the Bike Radar comments, I'm more inclined to try the Sufferfest app just to spite AC.
    MattM_WareAlexSPevashishDaul
    First #BAAW Badge Recipient
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    AlexSAlexS Member
    A lot of people incorrectly assume that James Watt developed the unit of measure "watts", that is incorrect, the unit was named in his honor for his work on the steam engine. Andrew invented the watt.
    Mattsimonsen77Martin
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    I wonder if AC and Stan are the same people?
    M_Ware
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    I use Sufferfest and have done for quite a while. I quite like the App, it's a good interface. I'm actually looking forward to my first shot at 4DP (although it will simply tell me - you are slow and bad at everything! and I will nod and continue to not cycle six months of the year)
    M_Waresimonsen77PreachSwanson
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    simonsen77simonsen77 Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    I've now come around and think this is an orchestrated ruse by AC and the Sufferfest folks to drum up interest. No way he's that obtuse.

    I am legitimately curious - it seems like a pretty reasonable way to make canned workouts even more specific. I think I will give the app a go soon, though I feel really guilty letting Trainer Road lapse, since I find their podcast so useful.
    First #BAAW Badge Recipient
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    Jennifer PostJennifer Post Member, Level 2 Supporter
    I skimmed through the thread after seeing this discussion. I hope it was a orchestrated. The only other alternative I see is AC was on a meth-fueled rage. Allegedly.
    PreachSwansonsimonsen77fyrehaar
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    kjrunninkjrunnin Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    I think it’s a scientist‘s version of a Charlie Sheen “tiger blood “ spiral.
    Tad_MachrowiczJennifer PostfyrehaarKenElPescadoPelado

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    That thread... :o

    AC has had these tirades before.
    M_Ware
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    PreachSwansonPreachSwanson Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, TRS/Baucco Officers
    Reading the thread makes me want to try it... I own all the SufferFest pre-app videos so maybe time, maybe
    Mattfyrehaar
    TRS Racing
    I'm an angel with an incredible capacity for beer
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    SralstonSralston Member, Pro Triathlete
    I think what AC does not realize is that Sufferfest is geared towards the average age grouper or person who just wants a quick 1 hour workout in the basement and not have it be boring. Does it not sound less painful to do 5 sec/ 1 minute or 5 minute intervals vs. a 20 minute FTP test. The FTP is not "dead" for the elite age grouper or professional. But for 90% of people doing triathlete maybe it is.
    AaronWebstey
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    @Sralston What AC is actually saying, if you can cut through all the shit he's spewing, is that FTP was never the best way to train for cycling. But it has been used as a proxy for so long because it simplifies 2 things: 1) getting a general understanding of the impact a workout has on one's body, and 2) allowing the non-professionally coached athlete to have an idea of recovery needs. For professional cyclists, a targeted approach accounting for individual power mapping at various intervals is used more than the broad stroke FTP, but this requires better insight from coaching (or the athletes themselves) than what a lot of AGers have access to. You need daily, hands on coaching to really get the best out of this program, not a weekly review by a level 1 coach over the internet. Sufferfest is trying to apply a more individualized coaching protocol to the rest of us. And AC is bitching because he said this 20 years ago, but lost out on the revenue stream because he didn't want to design a product that would give access to the masses.
    fyrehaarAaronWebsteySralston
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    Sufferfest is trying to apply a more individualized coaching protocol to the rest of us. And AC is bitching because he said this 20 years ago, but lost out on the revenue stream because he didn't want to design a product that would give access to the masses.
    Really all I see is a guy who thinks he is entitled to credit for what they've done and can't stand that he isn't receiving hosannahs . He is lashing out against marketing (which has absolutely worked because so many people are talking about it) and the very idea that someone else is making money off this work - all the while telling you to read his book.

    He isn't giving any credit to SUF for the packaging, the test protocol, the retooling of the app to calculate power targets from different settings, and frankly for building on monetizing his work in a way that he didn't. (So I totally agree with you on that one)

    He's a bitter old asshole and because he can't win rhetorically he's defaulted to invective. Comparing McQuillen to Weinstein was just out there. All he is doing at this point is digging a hole and hurting any brand that is associated with him. SUF and WKO4 actually look great. They are responsive and professional and are doing themselves proud right now.

    AaronWebsteysimonsen77Tad_Machrowicz
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    MattMatt Member, Administrator
    What bugs me is that Coggan has no vested interest in TP either, constantly saying he isn't financially compensated by them. So it's just a 'they aren't giving me credit' issue?
    fyrehaarTad_Machrowicz
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    simonsen77simonsen77 Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    TP had a nice blog post basically disavowing AC.
    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/new-training-methodologies-road-ahead/
    MattM_WarefyrehaarJennifer PostTad_Machrowicz
    First #BAAW Badge Recipient
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    I have boycotted SF ever since they went to a subscription model and I could no longer ride the Tour of Sufferlandria after spending hundreds of dollars on videos, but after that shit show of a thread I might have to give them another shot!
    simonsen77
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    dhrdhr Member
    Why are all of the prominent triathlon celebrities all unstable weirdos?
    AaronWebsteyM_Waresimonsen77Tad_Machrowiczmaggieru
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    dhr said:

    Why are all of the prominent triathlon celebrities all unstable weirdos?

    Been asking myself the same thing for about the past 18 hours
    M_WarebalsdorfdhrTad_MachrowiczKenElPescadoPeladomaggieruCraig D
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    fyrehaar said:

    Sufferfest is trying to apply a more individualized coaching protocol to the rest of us. And AC is bitching because he said this 20 years ago, but lost out on the revenue stream because he didn't want to design a product that would give access to the masses.
    Really all I see is a guy who thinks he is entitled to credit for what they've done and can't stand that he isn't receiving hosannahs . He is lashing out against marketing (which has absolutely worked because so many people are talking about it) and the very idea that someone else is making money off this work - all the while telling you to read his book.

    He isn't giving any credit to SUF for the packaging, the test protocol, the retooling of the app to calculate power targets from different settings, and frankly for building on monetizing his work in a way that he didn't. (So I totally agree with you on that one)

    He's a bitter old asshole and because he can't win rhetorically he's defaulted to invective. Comparing McQuillen to Weinstein was just out there. All he is doing at this point is digging a hole and hurting any brand that is associated with him. SUF and WKO4 actually look great. They are responsive and professional and are doing themselves proud right now.



    I went and read that. I'm sorry I did, but it seems to me that he is also claiming credit for a power profile testing setup that wasn't exactly his idea either - he may have adapted it for cycling (and I tend to doubt that he was the first to do so.)

    From a rowing background, the Danish program was doing power profile testing for their athletes in the early 1990s - the first paper published was 1994 - testing over 10 seconds / 1 minute / 2 km / 20 min (or 6km / 1 hour.

    Based on what I'd just read coming out of Coggan's keyboard, I'd not read his and Allen's book, or use anything that he was associated with - I'd use Sufferfest because they piss him off, and Trainingpeaks because they disavowed him.
    simonsen77MattwchevronfyrehaarAaronWebstey
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    I agree that AC really should STFU. I didn't look at the SUF marketing, so just took it at face value that they're claiming a "novel" approach to cycling training that has been around for decades. Just in the professional ranks, not addressed to novices. AC definitely has a wealth of information, just no tact regarding how to present it.

    And I use GoldenCheetah for all my serious stuff (which has been about 7 workouts this year). It's free!! And has tons of analysis tools if you know what you're looking at. W' is a good indicator for knowing how many matches you've burned and how horrible the next couple days are going to feel.
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    Hi everybody. David McQuillen from The Sufferfest here. Hope you don't mind me dropping in. Just wanted to say thanks for the level-headed discussion about our app and 4DP. Much appreciated and I hope you give the free trial a go to see how we've changed. If anyone ever has any questions, do feel free to send me an email david@thesufferfest.com (unless it's something really technical about trainer/app/tech set-up, in which case you're best to email theminions@thesufferfest.com). Cheers, David.
    MattM_WareJennifer PostRashyournotuniquefyrehaarTad_Machrowiczsimonsen77AaronWebsteyBrent_R
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    MattMatt Member, Administrator
    Welcome David @TheSufferfest . Please give your man Jared a raise, he's really good.

    You won't need a 2nd account for GVA here.
    fyrehaarAaronWebstey
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    I genuinely hope Coggan was trying to diminish The Sufferfest in his rantings and that it wasn't some clever ploy to help. That will make signing up for it today feel all that much better to me. Anything I can do to get myself interested in riding the trainer and hitting back at insufferable arrogant douches.
    M_WareTad_MachrowiczMattStruang
    I think I found my tribe of assholes.
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    DerekL said:

    I genuinely hope Coggan was trying to diminish The Sufferfest in his rantings and that it wasn't some clever ploy to help.

    We're not that clever.

    Tad_MachrowiczM_WareMartinDerekLsimonsen77AaronWebsteyAlexSfyrehaarBrent_R
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member

    DerekL said:

    I genuinely hope Coggan was trying to diminish The Sufferfest in his rantings and that it wasn't some clever ploy to help.

    We're not that clever.

    I would just like to point out that not being clever was my idea, and that @TheSufferfest used his dirtbag "marketing" pseudo-science to appropriate and profit from this concept. We at TriRoost.com have not been clever since 2014, just go back and do your research. I mean, maybe we have the same core level of non-cleverness, but his professional and profitable platform of clever-evasion is clearly morally inferior, and not fit for true high performance forum idiocy. It's about the numbers (of dick jokes), not the hype, people.
    Rashsimonsen77TheSufferfestfyrehaarM_WareTad_MachrowiczBrent_R
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    ADRBillyADRBilly Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    I started using Sufferfest back in September and am absolutely loving it! This being said, I have not tried Trainer Road or anything else other than Zwift, but it does everything that I need. The 4DP fitness test was good and the feedback on the test results was interesting as well. I already knew what my strengths and weaknesses were, and the test verified that. So in my opinion, it did its job. I hope that Sufferfest keeps adding to their workout library, as it makes a trainer workout much more enjoyable...I actually look forward to spending time on the trainer now!
    AaronWebsteyfyrehaar


    Kelly Lentz
    TRS Canada Chapter
    Please direct all complaints to James Lange


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