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"Over 30% are doping" - Joel Filliol on TRS42

Nice job @TheRealStarky and @joelfilliol on TRS42, I enjoyed that.

There's some discussion about the "over 30%" of athletes doping in Kona that Joel referred to. I think that what Joel meant is that at the "pointy end" of competition, both for pros and age-groupers, over 30% are doping.

For example, this would mean that 3-4 athletes in the top-10 are doping. This is not very hard to believe and I agree with that number.

Do you know who I am?

HSeeley14Granpa ChookDHansenTriJimmyArcherRDMTheo
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Comments

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    It isn't hard to believe no. It is a plausible guess. But 10% wouldn't be hard to believe either. Or 50%.
    I just want to highlight that we don't know, Joel doesn't know. So we shouldn't proceed as if that 30% number is a fact. The situation might be much worse, or better, than that.

    Now, you two both coach many professionals, so you may have stories or knowledge that lend you toward that 30% number, things I don't know about. If so..well...then spill the beans, I'll get the popcorn.
    Scott HackingJason LentzkeHSeeley14Rob ThwaitesDHansenTriTheo
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    TrimesTrimes Member
    You should read the WADA report 2013... it looks like some athletes from a particular nation like to miss controls...
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    @ Trimes if it's a public report then you can post it here and name the nation. No need for ellipsis...
    Robert Rankin

    Do you know who I am?

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    jackmott said:

    It isn't hard to believe no. It is a plausible guess. But 10% wouldn't be hard to believe either. Or 50%.
    I just want to highlight that we don't know, Joel doesn't know. So we shouldn't proceed as if that 30% number is a fact. The situation might be much worse, or better, than that.

    Now, you two both coach many professionals, so you may have stories or knowledge that lend you toward that 30% number, things I don't know about. If so..well...then spill the beans, I'll get the popcorn.

    If it was 50%, I think that I'd go back to coding today... Anyway, I think it's good that there's discussion and thus awareness to this issue. If we go about things thinking "oh well, there's no proof so let's just assume everyone is clean", then I can assure you that doping will get worse, not better.

    Do you know who I am?

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    jackmott said:

    It isn't hard to believe no. It is a plausible guess. But 10% wouldn't be hard to believe either. Or 50%.
    I just want to highlight that we don't know, Joel doesn't know. So we shouldn't proceed as if that 30% number is a fact. The situation might be much worse, or better, than that.

    Now, you two both coach many professionals, so you may have stories or knowledge that lend you toward that 30% number, things I don't know about. If so..well...then spill the beans, I'll get the popcorn.

    If it was 50%, I think that I'd go back to coding today... Anyway, I think it's good that there's discussion and thus awareness to this issue. If we go about things thinking "oh well, there's no proof so let's just assume everyone is clean", then I can assure you that doping will get worse, not better.

    Heather LendwayGranpa Chook

    Do you know who I am?

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    Big Red ExpressBig Red Express Member, Pro Triathlete
    edited June 2015
    Yeah... Joel would have more knowledge than just about anyone else, but even he is reduced to throwing out wild (though reasonable sounding) guesses.

    The German study that surveyed AG'ers is the best info that we have, even though it's still a pretty flawed survey. So I don't know how useful the results of that survey really are.

    There's no rock-solid way to get an accurate number. But one way of getting a sense of the scope of the issue may be conducting a survey of pros (both "Kona top-10 types", and all pros) that GUARANTEED anonymity. Because no doper would admit anything in a survey if they thought there was any chance of them getting caught.

    "Just when you think you have the answers... I change the questions!" - Rowdy Roddy Piper
    dmactri.com

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    I can easily imagine USADA taking interest in triathlon if an anonymous survey showed 30%+ admitting to doping.
    Big Red Express
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    oh god another coder who thinks he can coach people!
    MattAaron WebsteyRDM
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    Aaron WebsteyAaron Webstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    I was just thinking, oh god another coach who thinks he's a coder!
    lakercrmatthew_payneanthonytothHSeeley14RDMTheowchevronkjrunnin
    #KOAT
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    Based on that 30%, how many positive results has WTC potentially swept under the rug?
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    jlentzke said:

    Based on that 30%, how many positive results has WTC potentially swept under the rug?

    This is a good comment. The lack of positives from all the testing that WTC does is a bit worrying.

    James LangeanthonytothJason LentzkeAaron WebsteyRyan HeislerTheo

    Do you know who I am?

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    James LangeJames Lange Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    jlentzke said:

    Based on that 30%, how many positive results has WTC potentially swept under the rug?

    Either that or they are completely inept at catching them. It's hard to decide which is worse...

    anthonytoth


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    anthonytothanthonytoth Member, Pro Triathlete
    so basically 15 males and 12 women in the pro fields are doping. so still some cheat and walk away with no prize $$$ what a sport.
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    so basically 15 males and 12 women in the pro fields are doping. so still some cheat and walk away with no prize $$$ what a sport.


    No. Read again what I wrote.

    Do you know who I am?

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    See, this is exactly what I am talking about.
    A man pulls a number out of thin air "30%"

    And now we are already on to wondering how many people this implies the test is missing.

    Since the guess of 30% is probably an accuracy of +/- 25% we can't conclude anything!
    jlentzke said:

    Based on that 30%, how many positive results has WTC potentially swept under the rug?

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    jackmott said:

    See, this is exactly what I am talking about.
    A man pulls a number out of thin air "30%"

    And now we are already on to wondering how many people this implies the test is missing.

    Since the guess of 30% is probably an accuracy of +/- 25% we can't conclude anything!


    jlentzke said:

    Based on that 30%, how many positive results has WTC potentially swept under the rug?


    You want Joel (or I) to be responsible for everyone's level of reading comprehension? Not sure about Joel but I just don't have the time to do that job... (insert smiley here)

    Do you know who I am?

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    Did you listen to the podcast? I understand that it's pure speculation. That being said, Ben implied that WTC has pushed a positive result under the rug and that's all I was getting at. True or not, how isn't that a possibility?

    BTW "Man" makes it seem like Filliol has no insight as to how he came up with that number which is not the case.
    jackmott said:

    See, this is exactly what I am talking about.
    A man pulls a number out of thin air "30%"

    And now we are already on to wondering how many people this implies the test is missing.

    Since the guess of 30% is probably an accuracy of +/- 25% we can't conclude anything!


    jlentzke said:

    Based on that 30%, how many positive results has WTC potentially swept under the rug?

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    The way I heard it was specific to AG'ers IN Kona. Considering most of those AG'ers are the pointy end of the general IM field, I wouldn't be surprised if it could be as high as 30%. I would say about 20% of the local guys in my neck of the woods who are KQ'ers or trying to are on at least T.
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    idking90idking90 Member, Pro Triathlete
    @bryancd but you live in Phempdale, where there are more anti-aging clinics than there are gas stations because that's where old people who don't like humidity go.
    bryancd
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    Ian King said:

    @bryancd but you live in Phempdale, where there are more anti-aging clinics than there are gas stations because that's where old people who don't like humidity go.

    There is a doctor in Mesa who will whip you up a no shit cocktail of EPO, T, and HGH. The cyclist love him apparently.
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    @ Trimes if it's a public report then you can post it here and name the nation. No need for ellipsis...

    For everyone wondering what Trimes was hinting at:
    https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2013-adrv-report-en.pdf
    Page 21, Non-analytical ADRV in Triathlon, Spain has 13. That is a lot. Those stats include a few different categories (missed tests, whereabouts violations-three missed tests count as one ADRV, tampering etc). As a country, Spain has the 2nd most non-analytical ADRVs across all sports, trailing only Turkey.

    See page 8 for Triathlon's AAF (adverse analytical findings).
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    My thoughts are mixed on this we want to believe sport is clean but we know it isn't. My biggest issue is Joel talks about integrity of the sport and says "it would do me no good to throw names around" yet in not doing so he has thrown the integrity of 9 Olympic medalists under the bus by not doing so. As a result all 9 are automatically under suspicion now.

    As for Kona he has also thrown into question the integrity of every athlete at the pointy end of the race and then some.
    Yes a healthy suspicion of our athletes is good but in tossing out numbers it raises a lot of suspicion and clean athletes will be caught up in this. How am I the average supporter meant to view all athletes now guilty until proven otherwise.

    The real skeptic in me might say the coach who goes around throwing stones everywhere about drug use at current and former athletes plus Triathlon Federations might just be deflecting attention from his own squad and what might be going on there.
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    My thoughts are mixed on this we want to believe sport is clean but we know it isn't. My biggest issue is Joel talks about integrity of the sport and says "it would do me no good to throw names around" yet in not doing so he has thrown the integrity of 9 Olympic medalists under the bus by not doing so. As a result all 9 are automatically under suspicion now.

    As for Kona he has also thrown into question the integrity of every athlete at the pointy end of the race and then some.
    Yes a healthy suspicion of our athletes is good but in tossing out numbers it raises a lot of suspicion and clean athletes will be caught up in this. How am I the average supporter meant to view all athletes now guilty until proven otherwise.

    The real skeptic in me might say the coach who goes around throwing stones everywhere about drug use at current and former athletes plus Triathlon Federations might just be deflecting attention from his own squad and what might be going on there.

    You should check out my Twitter account, there's a ton of deflecting going on there.

    https://twitter.com/pstriathlon

    Aaron WebsteyJames LangeBehmeJRDM

    Do you know who I am?

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    The True GroffyThe True Groffy Member, Pro Triathlete
    Here's the good news: there are tons of triathletes out there who are kicking butt and taking names without resorting to doping. Talent and hard work can still take you far in this sport. Thank goodness.
    This is, however, a far more nuanced discussion than the one being presented. What constitutes cheating? I would argue that an abuse of pharmaceutical medications that are currently accepted under TUEs constitutes cheating. And unfortunately, I know for a fact that there are quite a few athletes working the system for a performance advantage. Since this directly violates the spirit of clean sport, I would argue that this is cheating.
    When Joel speaks about cheating, my guess is that his estimate includes this legal, but unethical, form of doping. And for those skeptics out there, Joel does not condone the abuse of TUEs and the culture in our squad certainly stays true to that. I, for one, have never had to file a single TUE in my entire career and I couldn't be prouder of that fact.
    Aaron WebsteyJason LentzkejoelfilliolHeather LendwaynickvasTrevor WurteleScott HackingGranpa ChooknedaDawnCTheokjrunninfyrehaarTad_M
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    @jackmott and others - to be clear 30% was not my number, that was suggested by @ TheRealStarky and it seemed reasonable at the moment of the discussion. I really don't know what the number is, but it certainly seemed to have sparked discussion, which is the point, isn't it. What I do know is there is little testing in age groups, and in pros there are big loop holes. How many age groups know what cold medication they can take pre race? How many have TUEs for any asthma medication they take? Those can both be doping violations for example.
    Aaron WebsteyHeather LendwayScott Hackingneda
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    @Jason Bush I actually said 5, not 9, and one of those has been busted for EPO (the Olympic champion from 2000)

    The real problem is not enough discussion about these issues. I'm happy to put some knowledge out there, and hear what others have to say.
    Aaron WebsteyHeather Lendwayidking90
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    trsradio69trsradio69 Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    @Barrieshepley wrote about this on Facebook. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1022657951091317&set=a.183255821698205.43840.100000413641089&type=1&theater

    "First off let me say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for international triathlon coach Joel Filliol I have known him since he was a 13-14 year old young triathlete who realized early he had more talent as a ooach, then he did as a junior triathlete. Joel was at some of my earliest triathlon camps in Collingwood when he was a teen growing in the sport and I have always enjoyed his wisdom and passion for the sport. Over the years Joel an I have been room-mates on the triathlon circuit and have had numerous suppers and long discussions on the sport. In short, I am a big fan.

    Joel paid his dues as a development coach in Victoria for Canada but it was his 4+ year commitment as the national coach with Simon Whitfield and the Beijing Olympic Games that really put him on the map (deservedly). Simon was incredibly well prepared for Beijing and Joel's ability to create an amazing training squad to support Simon was impressive (that included Jordan Rapp & Daniel Wells )

    I just got finished listening to Joel's Podcast on the Real Starky and while I agree with a tremendous amount of what he had to say on numerous topics, I do disagree on a few issues (see 30% drug usage topic below). I highly encourage you to listen to the 30 min podcasts, because Joel is a very bright, guy, with the strongest current group of Olympic Distance Triathletes in the World. The courage and effort it took to create this squad was massive and from an outsiders perspective the vast majority of his world-class athletes are racing incredibly well, love the squad and love Joel. His task of having 8-10 potential Olympic & Pan Am Medalists in the same squad is not easy and he has done a terrific job balancing a difficult task.

    Few triathlon coaches get enough recognition for the very tough job they do. Their compensation is modest compared to NBA and NHL coaches, and unlike those sports that have multiple assistants, most tri-coaches I know are one-man bands that have to do it all. Its clear that Joel, and the dozen other internatioal coaches I could name, are in the sport for the right reasons (to make a difference in the lives of some world-class athletes).

    Joel wrote an article regarding the Alberto Salazar current drug-crisis (Oregon Project of Runners) and his article has triggered some dialogue about drug useage in triathlon. I see any dialogue that can create an opportunity about drug-free sport as a positive thing.

    Joel speaks passionately and proudly about coaching drug free in his career. I have been with him at camps and know him well and truly believe the success of his athletes (Simon, Mario, Richard, Katie, Sarah and others) has come from pure hard work, good coaching and a dedication to many years towards excellence.

    His article and the resultant Pod-cast by the REAL STARKY suggests that perhaps 30% or more of the pros and age groupers in the biggest races in the sport are using drugs. While I agree with many of Joel's key messages on what it takes to be world-class and the process of getting there, I disagree with the assumption of the 30% + of cheaters in the sport.

    I am not naive enough to not know that there has been a small number of drug cheats in the sport. Fortunately these cheaters, often have been caught and sent from the sport (I also believe that a few have gotten away with cheating and have since retired). I have had the fortunate opportunity to be in the sport since the earliest days and have watched as closely as one could for any suspicious athletic performances.

    ITU president Les McDonald detested cheating of any manner and he and the international federation were at the leading edge of catching drug cheats. ITU were the first athletes ever tested at the Sydney Olympic Games for EPO and blood boosting. I sat with Carol Montgomery three days before the Olympics began in 2000 and had both her blood and urine assessed. I agree with Joel that the athletes know who is cheating (or likely) and I have never heard Bevan Docherty, Hamish Carter, SImon Whifield, Jan Frodeno, Emma Snowsill, Michelle Jones, Javi Gomez, Allistair Brownlee, Susan Williams, Hunter Kemper or Loretta Harrop's names ever attached to any inclination of drug usage (note the fact I have not mentioned other athletes doesn't mean I believe they use drugs, I am simply tossing out the names of some of the all-time greatest athletes ever and no one has ever given me any indication that these mega stars were using drugs).

    When the drug testors show up at my condo, unannounced at 6am in the morning to test an athlete in a camp, I feel good for the sport because I know if I didn't know they were coming, then the athletes don't know as well.

    There are a half-dozen athletes who everyone in the sport knows, who let themselves down by cheating and eventually tested posiitve. I personally wouldn't give ANY of them a second chance and believe when you cheat your competition, you lose the right to race against them in the futue (but thats a debate for another time).

    But I don't believe the cheating and drug usage that Joel talks about is remotely close to 30% or higher.

    Why?

    1. The cost of actually cheating. Our sport really doesn't have the multi-million dollar pay day that encourages one to spend the money cheating to try to get the big pay day. The majority of knuckleheads who have spent money on cheating, haven't got any return on their investment (ROI).

    2. ITU particularly (and WTS to an improving degree) are testing the short and long distance atheltes more often and having very few positive tests. Yes, I know there are ways that cyclists have cheated drug tests in the past. So a 100% clean record may not always mean one is drug free.

    3. The vast majority of the top coaches (Joel included) are watching everyone weekly and monthly for unexpected improvements. As an elite coach and announcer there is the odd big improvement that casts some doubt, but the vast majority of the athletes I have spoken about above, have shown the modest, yearly, hard-earned improvement to go from good to great to champions. If and when someone comes out of the dark, the entire very small triathlon family immediately watches that athletes very closely to see how CLEAN those performances truly are. The NFL and other organizations are not nearly as focused on this and as a result drugs are a bigger part of their sport and culture.

    Joel is correct that all federations are not as strong on drug testing. But both Joel and I have seen numerous federations (Australia, New Zealand, Canada, UK, USA, France, Germany to name a few) who are exceptional at drug testing and I believe are committed to stopping cheaters before they can alter a culture. As a sport WTC and ITU need to continue working with less organized federations to demand they raise their standards to the top countries.

    While no one will question that cycling has had a drug culture in their past, triathlon has simply not had a history of cheaters winning big events and being supported and protected by their sponsors, coaches and federations. I am proud that triathlon and triatheltes speak out LOUDLY against drug usage. I do believe a small number of "B" athletes with no brains and even less talent have tried (and will continue to try to cheat) but I believe the sport is basically in a healthy place. Coaches, federations, athletes, sponsors and training mates must all continue to accept nothing but a drug-free future going foward so that there is no drug-creep into the sport.

    Finally Joel talks about 30% or more for age group athletes at the biggest events. Sadly, we HAVE SEEN data that indicates the testing of a small number of age group medalists did test posiitve. Do I think that number is 30% or higher? No. I can say in three decades of personally developing age group athletes who have been on the podium at Kona and 70.3 World Championships, not one of them even considered cheating or would even know where to start. I honestly believe the vast VAST majority of the age group population do the sport to test themselves and to be healthy (not to cheat and risk their own health). There are age group cheaters, just like there are people who rip off the governement for taxes or refuse to pay their child support but I don't believe its rampant.

    I do encourage ITU and WTS to randomly test more age group athletes (not just in Kona or Chicago World Champs). Randomly do a few hundred tests a year so that no age group athlete will ever know when they might get tested (just like the random testing of the pros).

    Take time to listen to Joel's great interview with the Real Starky. There are many great ideas and 20+ years of wisdom in his answers. But I would take his assessment of the 30% plus cheating of the pros and age groupers as a very low probabilty. Don't get me wrong, I think talking about this topic on a regular basis with pros, age groupers, sponsors, coaches and federations is a good thing. We need to continue to drive home the message its easier to stop a major problem before it begins (something cycling should have had the courage to do 30 years ago).

    Take time to listen to the podcast if you have time
    Look for Podcast TRS42
    Go to 56:50 on the podcast to get Joel's interview or listen to it all if you have 90min.
    http://trstriathlon.com/radio/

    I am curious of your own thoughts and perspective on this topic.

    Barrie Shepley
    Aaron WebsteyDHansenTricoreydeveauxkjrunninfyrehaar
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    James LangeJames Lange Member, Rooster Endurance Member

    You should check out my Twitter account, there's a ton of deflecting going on there.

    https://twitter.com/pstriathlon



    I always thought you were trying to attract attention. ;)


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    James LangeJames Lange Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    Barrie's comment regarding the cost of doping and the lock of a decent ROI for pros does not ring true for AGers. Some of the people who qualify for Kona are spending tens of thousands of dollars every year on equipment, race entries, coaching, travel, etc., just of get there, and they stand to make absolutely no profit. In the BBC Panorama documentary teh journalist buys EPO from a Chinese website. He doesn't say how much it costs (for good reason, because some people would say "oh, I can afford that!") but I'd guess a decent supply costs less than the rear wheel on most of the bikes on Kona.


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    BehmeJBehmeJ Member

    Here's the good news: there are tons of triathletes out there who are kicking butt and taking names without resorting to doping. Talent and hard work can still take you far in this sport. Thank goodness.
    This is, however, a far more nuanced discussion than the one being presented. What constitutes cheating? I would argue that an abuse of pharmaceutical medications that are currently accepted under TUEs constitutes cheating. And unfortunately, I know for a fact that there are quite a few athletes working the system for a performance advantage. Since this directly violates the spirit of clean sport, I would argue that this is cheating.
    When Joel speaks about cheating, my guess is that his estimate includes this legal, but unethical, form of doping. And for those skeptics out there, Joel does not condone the abuse of TUEs and the culture in our squad certainly stays true to that. I, for one, have never had to file a single TUE in my entire career and I couldn't be prouder of that fact.

    Boom. And Groffy then drops the mic and walks off stage.


    John Behme
    Charlotte, North Carolina

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