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TRS Radio ep 97

Good to hear @TRS_tri and @Dark_mark back in the saddle.

1. I also don't think Beth or Lauren meant to take that shit.
2. Bring back TT4T!
3. I'd be curious to know what other NGB presidents make. $300k?? WTF?
4. @bbculp - too pretty for radio? Will he convince TBI to start giving out podcasting awards?

Looking forward to hearing regular episodes again!
ellsworth53tbalsdorfGasBombBrent_RMatt
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Comments

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    dhrdhr
    edited February 5
    If you're not a close personal friend of Beth or Lauren, why would I believe you're right about them?

    If you are a close personal friend of Beth or Lauren, I definitely don't believe you're right about them.

    AaronWebsteyEvanGasBombMamaCheetah
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    Could you put in the show notes where I could buy massive quantities of this Ostatine?
    KenElPescadoPeladoEvanMamaCheetah
    Demotivational Speaker
    Master of the Absurd - King of all Polls
    Kansas Native
    Tweets Me  Follow ItsShug
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    If they did not take the stuff knowingly (and sure I can believe that) then they need to throw the name of the products they feel were tainted out there into the public. Otherwise, silence is no better than guilt. The companies producing substandard tainted supplements need to be held to a higher standard. Good lord, this is ridiculous that they still do not have to meet any sort of industry standards to produce this crap.
    AaronWebsteyRobert RankinMamaCheetah
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    dhr said:

    If you're not a close personal friend of Beth or Lauren, why would I believe you're right about them?

    If you are a close personal friend of Beth or Lauren, I definitely don't believe you're right about them.

    Actually, I was a bit confused - I was thinking it was Barrett Brandon's wife. I don't know Lauren Barnett at all. Never met Beth before, either. But the argument that really gets me (which Ben made on the show) is that It just doesn't make sense to jam yourself full of Ostarine close enough to a race to get popped.

    Also, I've historically had little sympathy for the 'tainted supplements' argument, since everyone knows that industry is such a shit show (as per @IanL 's comment). But salt tabs? That's rough.
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    Yet, these were by far not the first people popped for this drug (which is essentially an anabolic steroid)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enobosarm

    Ostarine isn't even an approved drug yet, so why would a supplement company even have it in their repertoire so that cross contamination could happen? If they do, that whole place is doing illegal shit.

    Why did Ben Johnson get popped in the Olympics for steroid use? Because someone screwed up the dosing and the timing.
    idking90AaronWebsteyGranpa ChookMamaCheetah
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    Yeah, i find it hard to believe (especially in Beth's case) where they can't recreate from where the Ostarine came. Which sucks because i really like Beth and Luke as advocates for the sport, Island House Tri, etc.

    the "tainted supplements" argument was pretty much shown to be flimsy when Contador made it...
    AaronWebstey


    unofficial non-general counsel for TRS Racing and other TRS-related entities
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    Neurolytes by Classified Nutrition was the salt tab in the Barnett case (at least if one uses deductive reasoning). It was added to the high risk supplement list on Friday after the I AM TRUE press release said the "product" would be added to the list. Neurolytes samples tested positive for Ostarine.
    KenElPescadoPeladoEvanMartinAaronWebstey
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    Ostarine? Osteen? The similarity is uncanny.


    M_WareGasBombMartinsimonsen77Craig D
    JO1.jpg 91.3K
    Sometimes I tweet... Follow PescadoPelado
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    What makes both possibilities so hard to judge are that they are both completely possible. The reason they are possible is because ostarine works. For women, Ostarine is a boon, allowing them to build muscle tissue with increased efficiency, but without having to worry about potential masculinization. I was bored this weekend and read several online articles (from supplement pushers and academics) and seriously both the athlete and the supplement company would have very good reasons to use ostarine. Also, unlike steroids and HGH, it is extremely cheap, making it a great filler for a company that wants to stand out from the crowd. Or an athlete that wants to buy in bulk.
    AaronWebstey

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    Oh and FWIW, I've met both Beth and Lauren and thought they both were just really cool people. Of course, I've also been divorced twice so women fool me easily.
    balsdorfAaronWebsteyDark_markRobert RankinKenElPescadoPeladoCraig DkjrunninEvanGranpa ChookaltaylorausdoyoueventribroccochraneAlwaysCuriousidking90MamaCheetahTad_Machrowicz

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    Three things I find interesting in this matter:

    1. Setting aside motives/guilt of the athletes - I find it hard to believe that supplements passed through the same factory would pick up nearly enough of a substance to then be picked up during testing. There is a threshold/error limit on the testing in place for this very reason I believe. If the athletes are claiming tainted supplements, then I have to believe the manufacturers were deliberately dosing the supplements with the stuff. As @TRS_tri mentioned in the podcast, I wouldn't think salt supplements would be the place they would want to do that. Would make more sense in a protein powder or creatine concoction (which has happened many times in the past).

    2. As far as any nefarious activities on Lauren's part to achieve the positive return on the bottled and unbottled samples she had tested, both she and Beth shared representation. I would think they would have done the same for both athletes if that was the plan.

    3. Every time there is a doper in the sport who has served their punishment, the argument against their post ban participation is that the benefits of past doping continue to assist the athlete moving forward. This is championed as a primary reason for lifetime bans. In this case, there has not been much of a similar outcry. Assuming an athlete unintentionally doped, does the same argument not apply? What if they unknowingly doped for years before it was realized - are they forever prohibited from competition due to the physical enhancement brought about by the doping? I know recently there was a juvenile who had a coach doping him up without his or his parents knowledge (allegedly) - is that kid never allowed to race bikes again? Just an interesting issue that exists with "unintentional" doping.
    AaronWebsteyGasBombRobert RankinAlwaysCurious
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    The calls for super forever bans are generally only when the athletes are Russian or Eastern European. You know, cause they are evil.
    GasBombAaronWebsteydhrEvanMamaCheetah
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    According to Culp we can add Jamaicans' to the doping axis of evil now.
    GasBombrangamel
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    edited February 6
    I think it's funny how the standard response to getting caught taking PED's is always contamination or tampering.

    You are delusional if you think these athletes didn't take them knowingly. They should both be banned for 2 years.
    KenElPescadoPeladoAaronWebsteyGasBombEvanMamaCheetah
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    I'm almost certainly delusional. Sad. Just sad.
    Tad_Machrowicz
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    So based on USADA putting out a press release yesterday on Osterine, there are really only 2 possibilities. The athletes took it on purpose, or the supplement makers put it in on purpose. The drug is not approved for human use in any country. It is illegal all over and is still in trial format. So there is absolutely no reason for it to be anywhere near the production lines, let alone salt tab production lines.

    This being the case, the athletes totally need to out the companies, and sue them for lost wages if they truly believe they were wronged, because otherwise the spectre of drug cheat will follow them. If they don't do this, I can't believe them that they had no idea what was going on, #sworry.
    AaronWebsteyRobert RankinGasBombGranpa ChookRashMamaCheetah
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    I personally think that, in the context of this discussion, the approach taken by Ben and Mark was at odds with other similar circumstances.

    The guys were very tough on ALL British males triathletes in Cozumel and certain pros who had also been through China concluding that "everyone knows Mexican meat is tainted and everything in China is dirty so tough shit at the very least the individual who got popped was really stupid and at worst was intentionally doping and you have a responsibility for what goes in your body as a pro athlete" - it may come as a surprise but in the UK we don't eat much Mexican meat, its certainly not something I was aware of.

    What I find uncomfortable is that the same approach doesn't apply. If you are a pro athlete you do have a responsibility for what goes into your body and if you are buying supplements that say "Made in China" on the back, you should be taking steps to ensure that these are properly tested. There are plenty of manufacturers that are tested to WADA standards, athletes who choose to use other (cheaper) alternatives, run this risk and have to take responsibility for that, wherever they come from.

    I was overall disappointed with the approach, I felt that Ben and Mark didn't apply the same standards they have in other dubious cases (where they have assumed guilt without proof) but here they seem willing to give the benefit of the doubt because "we've met them and they seem nice" a criticism which we have heard them levy at other sites and individuals in similar circumstances where they have been trying to protect athletes.

    FWIW, two athletes popping for the same drug, at the same time, claiming the same tainted supplements, but from a different source, defence - that's more than one coincidence!
    AaronWebsteyRobert RankinEvanGranpa ChookAlwaysCurious
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    IanL said:

    So based on USADA putting out a press release yesterday on Osterine, there are really only 2 possibilities. The athletes took it on purpose, or the supplement makers put it in on purpose. The drug is not approved for human use in any country. It is illegal all over and is still in trial format. So there is absolutely no reason for it to be anywhere near the production lines, let alone salt tab production lines.

    This being the case, the athletes totally need to out the companies, and sue them for lost wages if they truly believe they were wronged, because otherwise the spectre of drug cheat will follow them. If they don't do this, I can't believe them that they had no idea what was going on, #sworry.

    Well said.
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    edited February 7
    @andrewm88 You make some points and that is a fair assessment, though let me try to explain my stance (can't speak for Ben).

    I think British athletics is just dirty as fuck. Cycling, running, triathlon - they are running a systemic doping regime for their athletes, and I do not think it was an age grouper who tested positive in Cozumel.
    So I am willing to take a harder line on them because I believe there is all sorts of fuckery going on there.

    For Beth and Lauren, I am not willing to just make the judgement that they were willingly doping. For starters, I have been trying not to make snap judgments and public statements without knowing all the facts. Sure it is probably entertaining for everyone out there when I do that, but that has come to bite me in the ass a few times.

    Another reason: there have now been 4 women who claim that this was in their supplements. Are they all lying? Maybe. Is there maybe possibly something bigger going on here with QC and manufacturing processes and lack of regulation for supplements? Maybe. It could be one, or the other, or both, or something else.

    For me just to say "These women are doping on purpose" is just not a reasonable conclusion to draw and if they truly are innocent, well fuck, could you imagine? However, if they were doping with intent, well then, fuck them. My girlfriend has literally lost money to them the last few seasons and I have expensive tastes goddamit.

    So in summation, who the fuck knows what is going on and in the meantime, let's process all the facts and see what else pops up. I wrote to Classified Nutrition requesting details regarding where their products are being made and what (if any) quality control measures are being taken, but I do not think I will be hearing back.
    Craig Dsimonsen77Robert RankinkjrunninGasBombAaronWebsteytcraigtribalsdorfAlwaysCuriousMamaCheetahTad_Machrowicz
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    Go on any supplement forum and look up SARMs or Ostarine and you will find some little weasel asking about their benefits for endurance sports. You can buy them anywhere (as a research drug). I saw an article on the Maxim site with a DEA representative suggesting SARMs are not in the same class the T and 'The Clear'/BALCO-type drugs, so they can't stop them yet. And everyone's second favourite podcaster, Ben Greenfield, gives the drugs a shout out on his site.

    I would be curious to see a list of male athletes using the same products...
    GasBombAaronWebstey
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    edited February 7
    It's really sad because this case paints the supplement industry in a really bad light. The truth is, it's a fantastic and upstanding industry that has a lot of regulations and nearly all products are extremely effective. The whole point is to make your life better than it was or could be. Who doesn't want that??? Everyone deserves the best life has to offer, including things that they don't work for, and don't have naturally occurring within their body.

    #not-all-supplements
    AaronWebsteyMartinMamaCheetah
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    So it seems that Lauren took Neurolytes (as they just showed up on the Supplement411 list). Which begs the question of why she wasn't using her own sponsor's product, Nuun.
    AlwaysCuriousTad_Machrowicz
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    @IanL - I would point out that athletes often don't use sponsors' products. May have a Nuun/Hammer/etc. bottle, but that's not what is in there. Look at cycling - guys ride "unbranded" tires all the time (competitor tires with decals removed). Heck, that is how Skratch came into existence - guys on multiple teams were drinking the "secret drink mix" (not to be confused with EPO) which Allen Lim was making for his own team.

    Not saying that is what was going on here, but not surprised when you find athletes using products other than those provided by their sponsors.
    AaronWebstey
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    Though you usually go with the other guy's product because it is better than what is being offered. I can understand that in the case of actual fuel (Poweraid versus Gatorade versus Skratch or whatever else), though in this case it is electrolyte tablets. A quick look on the websites shows very little difference, in fact Nuun seems far better. The Neurolytes do contain Rhodiola Rosea, which some Googling shows is a dubious plant extract that the FDA says at best is worthless and at worse may cause illness. So there needs to be a reason to go all secret and use the competitors product.

    And one would also expect that she has to pay for her Neurolytes, while I woudl assume Nuun would give her all the tablets she would want. Not bad for a starving athlete (expect the lack of calories in this case of course).

    Regardless, there are so many little maybes and ifs in all these stories.
    AaronWebsteyAlwaysCuriousRobert Rankin
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    Agreed. Who knows. Maybe someone gave her a bottle to try? (isn't the company located near where she lives) Or maybe she just used them to soak her soar injections sites.

    People do dumb stuff all the time. Salt supplementation is suspect to begin with. Most people have more sodium in their system than they will ever need - especially when you are chugging endurance drinks before, during and after events. Most people are doing it to avoid cramps when there is actually no proof that salt supplementation reduces cramping. Maybe she "could feel" the Rhodiola Rosea working it's magic!

    She probably just gets a discount code from Nuun anyway to share in her signature line on Slowtwitch!
    AaronWebsteysimonsen77
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    Zing
    AaronWebstey
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    You got to really love your salt to pay $25.99 for a bottle of neurolytes.
    AaronWebsteyGranpa ChookMartinRobert Rankin
    WTC Free since 2010


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    edited February 8
    That cheap for steroids magic a win quality homeopathic aids.
    kjrunninAaronWebsteyRashandrewm88Robert RankinTad_Machrowicz
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    This episode was a grower.

    GasBombAaronWebsteyCraig DKenElPescadoPeladoRobert RankinMamaCheetahTad_Machrowicz
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    Everyone knows about tainted meat because of the Contador case. At least that's my perception. Eating meat in China or Mexico seems like something most people in the sport would avoid.

    Avoiding Neurolytes, an electrolyte capsule, as it relates to avoiding Mexican/Chinese meat is a false equivalency in my humble opinion.

    That said, I will confess that it's certainly easier to criticize a still unknown Brit versus Americans whom I have met face to face and who both appeared on my show.

    If we are going to get all nationalistic, which I'm inclined to do now under the Trump administration's leadership, I'd like to point out that it's nice knowing that USADA is actually fucking testing and is willing to name names. We certainly CANNOT say the same for the Brits.
    AaronWebsteyAlwaysCuriousKenElPescadoPeladoKuchRobert RankinGasBombMamaCheetahTad_Machrowicz

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