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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    Had this one on my short list for next year. Now, um, I don't know. 1st year events make me nervous. Starting to look harder at IM Canada now or do IM Texas again and hope it's not 1000 degrees with 10000% humidity.
    AaronWebstey

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    ItsShugItsShug Member, Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    You actually going to hang out with anyone during IMTX this year or you just going to stuff yourself in the hotel room the whole time?
    Demotivational Speaker
    Master of the Absurd - King of all Polls
    Kansas Native
    Tweets Me  Follow ItsShug
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    GasBomb said:

    Had this one on my short list for next year. Now, um, I don't know. 1st year events make me nervous. Starting to look harder at IM Canada now or do IM Texas again and hope it's not 1000 degrees with 10000% humidity.

    IM Canada is awesome. Absolutely beautiful scenery and a great village. Hopefully you are good at climbing and descending though.

    IMTX this year will be interesting since it has moved to April. Wetsuit swim, should be cooler and less humid. Bike course will be absofuckinglutly boring as it is 2 loops on a tollroad.
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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    ItsShug said:

    You actually going to hang out with anyone during IMTX this year or you just going to stuff yourself in the hotel room the whole time?

    I know, bad form on my part. I even turned down a dinner invitation from @Dark_mark and Jess. If I don't race Texas this year, I might just fly down to hang out with you crazy cock rockers.


    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    ItsShugItsShug Member, Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    Do you remember us yelling at you at all?
    rigpig
    Demotivational Speaker
    Master of the Absurd - King of all Polls
    Kansas Native
    Tweets Me  Follow ItsShug
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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    ItsShug said:

    Do you remember us yelling at you at all?

    Yes, I even saw @espej09 a couple times during the run. Coming off the bike was the best because I'm used to it just being Becky and I at races, so having a group yelling for me was pretty damn cool. I also got a high five from a possibly drunk @Ben Hobbs on the first loop of the run.
    M_WareTad_M

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    balsdorf said:

    GasBomb said:

    Had this one on my short list for next year. Now, um, I don't know. 1st year events make me nervous. Starting to look harder at IM Canada now or do IM Texas again and hope it's not 1000 degrees with 10000% humidity.

    IM Canada is awesome. Absolutely beautiful scenery and a great village. Hopefully you are good at climbing and descending though.

    IMTX this year will be interesting since it has moved to April. Wetsuit swim, should be cooler and less humid. Bike course will be absofuckinglutly boring as it is 2 loops on a tollroad.
    Well as I live in Indiana, climbing isn't my specialty, but I survived IMMT, IMLOU, and Toughman NY so I should be just fine. I'm also tempted by IMTX because of the flat but possibly very fast bike and run courses. If the weather cooperated I could possible go sub 11 at Texas, where as Canada would be a lot more challenging/slow, but possibly a lot more fun. I'm nowhere near a "Kona" guy, so part of the decision is also just where do I want to spend a week?


    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    Kelly O'MaraKelly O'Mara Member, Pro Triathlete
    Ugh, I heard this yesterday and now it's official. Seems like a fucking shame to buy one of the most popular and competitive events on the circuit (Vineman 70.3, not the full) and then kill it and destroy all of its history. The move only happened because Santa Rosa offered a more appealing $$$ contract.

    I think it's fine to move from July to May, logistically, but it doesn't seem like a coincidence that they're trying to kill off Wildflower two weeks earlier.

    I know none of this is new or shocking, but what's the end game? The end game sucks.
    KenElPescadoPeladoJames Langefyrehaar
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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    edited October 2016
    The end game is apparently world domination. It's unfortunately Econ 101. If you are a monopoly, you have to buy out or buy up all the competition and flood the market with an inferior pricier product. So you not only take out the competition, but you create a massive barrier of entry for any upstarts or smaller competitors. What Messick has done is actually quite beautiful from a business perspective. As a lover of all things triathlon, I think he is a fucking monster and must be stopped. I've also done 4 IM branded races in the last year and a few months, so I am also part of the problem.
    Tad_M

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    neil5youngneil5young Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member

    Ugh, I heard this yesterday and now it's official. Seems like a fucking shame to buy one of the most popular and competitive events on the circuit (Vineman 70.3, not the full) and then kill it and destroy all of its history. The move only happened because Santa Rosa offered a more appealing $$$ contract.

    I think it's fine to move from July to May, logistically, but it doesn't seem like a coincidence that they're trying to kill off Wildflower two weeks earlier.

    I know none of this is new or shocking, but what's the end game? The end game sucks.

    Had all the same feelings on this yesterday when I saw it. Bitched to the wife as soon as she was willing to listen. I've wanted to hit Vineman 70.3 for a while, so this sucks. I'm passing on it even with the priority reg from volunteering at the full to do Wildflower.

    fyrehaar

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    Kelly O'MaraKelly O'Mara Member, Pro Triathlete
    @GasBomb Like we always say: "Aside from the whole threatening to destroy the longterm health of the sport thing, they put on great events."

    @neil5young Wildflower is awesome! And I'm hoping with the 35th anniversary year, it's a big party and more people do it. I'll be there and I know @EmilyCocks will be there.
    neil5youngGasBombGranpa ChookKenElPescadoPeladoEmilyCocksfyrehaar
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    Sad news for Tri-cal and Wildflower. Of course WTC couldn't keep it in July they had to move it to fucking early May.
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    Aw, Wildflower can't die, can it? Somewhere out there, Cam Widoff just died a little inside.

    I bet @Martin is the only one who even remembers Cam, god I'm old.
    MartinKelly O'MaraGranpa Chook
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    EmilyCocksEmilyCocks Member, Pro Triathlete
    @AaronWebstey I met Cam Widoff a few years ago at Wildflower. He was competing as a "legend." He talked a lot--gossiped with me for 30 or so minutes at the finish.
    AaronWebsteyPreachSwansonJames Lange
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member

    @AaronWebstey I met Cam Widoff a few years ago at Wildflower. He was competing as a "legend." He talked a lot--gossiped with me for 30 or so minutes at the finish.

    I'M NOT WORTHY!!

    That is awesome.
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    I would love to do Wildflower before it becomes a warm bath followed by a duathlon. Crazy about that lake.
    KenElPescadoPeladoGasBombGranpa Chook
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    EmilyCocksEmilyCocks Member, Pro Triathlete
    edited October 2016
    On the Vineman 70.3 news---a 27 year old "classic" race was changed (that was popular and sold out in minutes). Makes me sad.
    Granpa Chook
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    Remember when Vineman (full) was known as the oldest independent full distance in the USA? My first half was at Vineman- Chuckie V won and Mike Pigg came second. I feel really old now.
    KenElPescadoPeladoAaronWebsteyGasBombGranpa Chookfyrehaar
    WTC Free since 2010


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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, TRS/Baucco Team Member

    Remember when Vineman (full) was known as the oldest independent full distance in the USA? My first half was at Vineman- Chuckie V won and Mike Pigg came second. I feel really old now.

    New favourite. Sworry to nobody.
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    ShepherdShepherd Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    I don't really understand the business model here. I know some of you have thought about this more deeply than others and some have even attended TBI in recent years. @Ryan Heisler I believe you've been there as have others. What am I missing here? People continue to say that the death of short course racing (up to Olympic distance) is going to be the death of the sport, but it seems like a slow steady march to nothing but Starbucks-style events now. That is, kill off all the iconic races (Wildflower, Vineman, Soma, SuperFrog, B2B, etc) and entire race series (5150, LifeTime - I know still alive but reduced and no pros), and basically replace everything with the same homogenized IM distance race. Coincidentally, Starbucks may be the perfect analogy but I don't want to go full DevPaul here and explore.

    If you assume that many of the people doing this are one-and-done (maybe two and maybe one 70.3 and one 140.6) at the full distance, then you have to realize that your total accessible market is fixed and likely (definitely) shrinking because of your business practices.

    So, you then have to assume a few things to make sense of this. 1) The margins on IM registration are much, much higher than short course registrations. 2) They know the TAM is shrinking and don't care because of Asia.

    If those two things are true then short course racing is going to either die and/or get much more expensive, and triathlon in the US has peaked without a way (or a care) to come back. I question the growth strategy in the Asian market because it looks too much like golf and we all know how that's going. If you don't know how the golf industry is doing, just Google "Nike golf clubs".

    Sorry for the long post but I was planning out my races for next year and have no plans on doing a 140.6, would like to do a 70.3 and would love to race 4-6 Olys or Intls. Totally doable, but the number of options is reduced every year for that type of schedule. Every year.
    GasBombCraig_DMattwchevronKelly O'MaraTad_Mfyrehaar
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    Ryan HeislerRyan Heisler Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    Good stuff here, although the example with 5150 is flawed; I think WTC wanted to move the business model to having a feeder series of events to lead into 70.3 and full distance racing.

    From an event production model: there is very little on the financial side differentiating a sprint from an Olympic distance race. A lot of that comes from police requirements these days; your average cop needs to be given four hours of double OT to be at an intersection, whether he's there for 15 minutes or the full 4 hours. You have to book in four hour increments.

    So generally, yes, WTC does a very good job of negotiating these agreements so that many of those services are donated, or they receive them at a significant discount versus the remainder of the marketplace. That's the power of the brand versus other event producers.

    Speaking generally, I think their long-term model looks something like this:

    140.6s owned and operated by WTC (this is true for the most part in North America)
    70.3s are licensed events produced by local RD (exception of those taking place at 140.6 venues)
    Local RD uses their other sprints/Olympics to lever up to the 70.3 event that they manage.

    A good example of that these days? Delmo in New Jersey. I don't think you'll see producers smaller than him in the next 5 years or so.

    The advantage of that model is that, if you're the "chosen one" RD that gets to put on that 70.3, you might be able to leverage that in negotiations for your other races. Whether that means they'll actually pass on some of those savings to consumers is another story.

    All of this is predicated on the notion that volunteers are not considered employees under wage and hour statutes, which is going to wind up going to trial in the case of Competitor Group.
    MattSchmitzHappens
    Resident Gear Guru
    Bike Crash Free Since August 4th, 2014
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    Kelly O'MaraKelly O'Mara Member, Pro Triathlete
    edited October 2016
    @Ryan Heisler If it turns out volunteers aren't actually volunteers, a lot of things are getting thrown out the window.
    AaronWebsteyGasBomb
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    @AaronWebstey - these are article material. Longest posts since @BW_Tri's pro math lesson, I think, and a good read.
    M_WareAaronWebsteyGasBombTad_M
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    rigpigrigpig Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    GasBomb said:

    Had this one on my short list for next year. Now, um, I don't know. 1st year events make me nervous. Starting to look harder at IM Canada now or do IM Texas again and hope it's not 1000 degrees with 10000% humidity.

    May now? F, me I am out. Way too early for me to train for, being up here in the frozen land. IM Canada is better timing, but that one left a lasting reminder in my mind. My mountain training area is cold and windy, so that sucks. And the year I did the race, I was never so cold in my life. The year before was hot, and I think this year it was ok, but I seem to bring that bad luck with me so due to be cold again.

    Kevin Brydges
    You're the rig guy? You don't look like you worked on rigs....
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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    @rigpig Hey brother. You tell me. Pick a race. I'm really not picky, but I can't do a fall Ironman because of that trail race @PreachSwanson has me talked into. It's in October and will require a proper run specific build.
    rigpig

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    Ryan HeislerRyan Heisler Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member

    @Ryan Heisler If it turns out volunteers aren't actually volunteers, a lot of things are getting thrown out the window.

    I don't think it's as radical as you might think. Relatively simple organizational changes with regard to moving to a 501(c)(3), have them be the race producers, and use the for-profit as a licensing organization for the intellectual property.

    I hate the way that they promote themselves (they claim a lot of charitable work but don't actually grant money), but the Hartford Marathon Foundation here in CT does a very good job of that. The head of it (aka the RD) does very well for herself, taking home $165K a year.
    GasBombKelly O'Mara
    Resident Gear Guru
    Bike Crash Free Since August 4th, 2014
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    kjrunninkjrunnin Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    GasBomb said:

    @rigpig Hey brother. You tell me. Pick a race. I'm really not picky, but I can't do a fall Ironman because of that trail race @PreachSwanson has me talked into. It's in October and will require a proper run specific build.

    IMC. Both of you.


    GasBombM_WarePreachSwansonCraig_D

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    GasBombGasBomb Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    I'm game. @rigpig needs to fix his broken wing.
    PreachSwansonkjrunnin

    Clay Richard Gasway
    King of all Mediocrity
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    kjrunninkjrunnin Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member, Level 2 Supporter
    GasBomb said:

    I'm game. @rigpig needs to fix his broken wing.

    I think it's an overuse injury from reaching into a tub of gummi bears
    M_WareGasBombKenElPescadoPeladorigpigTad_MCraig_Dyournotunique

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    GrantLastovicaGrantLastovica Member, TRS/Baucco Team Member
    Do we need to start a 2017 calendar already? I was thinking about IMTX but I want to see who all is doing it. And if @rigpig @GasBomb @kjrunnin are all doing IMC then maybe I'll call an audible
    M_WarekjrunninGasBomb

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