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Which Torhans should I get?

So, the Torhans sale is coming up in 6 weeks. My goal this year is to race a few 70.3s. Any recos on which products to get? I'm planning on the Aero 30 for sure. I was thinking of trying the Infinit hydration line that some mentioned before, which means I prolly don't need the bento box (though I may purchase to have it). Should I also get a VR series bottle for extra hydration on the rig? That's an extra 20 oz for a total of 50 oz over the 56 miles. Too much? Aero 20 and the VR for 40 oz? I'm not totally sure how much liquid I'll need in a 70.3 race (yes I realize that's individual, and I'd rather err on the high than the low side).

Those with experience with the Infinit and that distance and/or suggestions please chime in. Just looking for a bit of guidance as I'll learn what works for me through doing the race.

Thanks! @HansBielat
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Comments

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    Practice practice practice the nutrituion. Did I mention practice your nutrition. I sweat a ton and can't carry enough water (in an aero manner) to not use hand ups. I aim tfor 24 oz at a min on the bike. More if hot. Infinit is great stuff. Even if you don't go custom it is good and allows worked well for me. Not might for you though.

    As for your hydration needs. I would aim to take in 20-24oz of water depending on what works for you (or maybe more). If you bike around a 2:45 you should take in about 50oz of water total. Maybe slightly more.

    So you could do the 30 plus vr. Or maybe to the 20/aeroz and then the vr and plan to take a handup to refill the bta system. Generally, the vr would be used for a concentrated formula for most people for their liquid nutrition, but you could also just put a normal dose in there.

    Another option is a bottle behind the seat. I use this for a bottle along with a bta bottle and plan on one handup about halfway through the bike. I'm just use whatever liquid calorie source is available on course and rarely take water. I just have found I do better with more electrolyte balanced fluid coming in all the time. There are really so many options when it comes to nutrition. Just need to start trying some to see what works for you.
    Zach Boring, Overly Average Looking Man
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    Thanks, @zachboring! I know it's highly individual, but this is helpful for me. I've never done more than an Oly and never carried nutrition beyond plain water. I'm sure I screwed it up by not so this will be a whole new thing for me to get it down for the ride and run.

    For clarification, are you saying water only or are you using that term broadly to include liquid calories? And you mean 20-24 oz per hour?
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    I'm using it broadly for liquid calories. I only take swig of water as I leave aid stations and use the rest for cooling.

    And yes 20-24oz an hour is a good place to start
    kevinschummer
    Zach Boring, Overly Average Looking Man
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    Zach MillerZach Miller Member, Rooster Endurance Member, POTM
    I use the vr as my flat tire repair kit holder and use a from hydration and rear mount for hand ups
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    yournotuniqueyournotunique Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    I was using a PD torpedo mount, but am switching to the Aero30. I use a VR, but only as a refill for my front bottle - it likes to leak all over me if I try to drink from it. And I use rear for flat kit. Though I sometimes really press my luck and don't bring one.

    I'm a heavy sweater and find I need closer to 24oz and around 200 calories per hour. If I can get most of that from liquid, I seem to be happier, but that's something I'm still, and probably forever, working out.
    -I know it's wrong. Blame old AOL character limits. Illadelph |
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    @TheRunOBX Interesting idea. Everything fits compactly in there?

    @yournotunique Kinda what I was thinking, use the VR to refill the Aero30. Rear mount for repair kit. Decisions decisions but nice to know someone else's thinking is in line with mine.
    yournotunique
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    My thought was to use an Aero 30 alone for hydration for Oly distance, and add a bottle behind the seat for 70.3. I'm also planning on getting a VR Felt to use for my spare tube and CO2 and a Bento for homemade rice cakes for my nutrition. I've had good luck with Skratch so far, so I'll stick with that until it doesn't work.

    How are hand-ups done? Bottles on the go? Paper cups that you have to stop for?
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    Aero 30. Highly recommend Infinit Nutrition.

    I've had the VR bottle for a couple years, now, and basically I never could manage to drink from it easily enough to make it. I converted it into a tool carrier and just use a wing behind the saddle for long course stuff, or a single cage for short course. Your mileage may vary, but that's what works for me.

    I found that for sprint/OLY, I don't need the rear cage - I'm not a heavy sweater. Put a single on for 70.3, gives me ~48oz on the bike for a 56 ride if I don't pick up a water at turnaround, and that seems to work for me just fine.

    TL;DR - Aero 30 and a rear wing + VR tool carrier will be a single setup that will work for every race, ever. Buy that.
    kevinschummeryournotunique
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    Really quick, goin off of what @zachboring was saying practice practice practice. You should also do a sweat test. You weigh yourself naked before a ride, typically on the trainer(easier to control effort). Ride an hour at a moderate pace. Record what you drank in that hour. Hop back on the scale immediately weigh in again. Subtract the 2 weigh ins, get a number, convert to ounces. Add the amount of ounces to what you lost and that is your sweat rate.
    Here's a few links to calculations and protocols.
    http://www.triathlontrainingblog.com/post/sweat-rate-test/
    http://triathanewbie.com/triathlon_articles/triathlon_article_The_Sweat_Test.html

    Snag the aero 30oz BTA system or the
    Aero Z. That just looks sick
    kevinschummer
    village idiot
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    Quick follow up @Duckies. Do you use a seat tube or down tube cage for water pick up? Quick drink or pour into the Aero 30?
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    yournotuniqueyournotunique Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    Bottles on the go. And Skratchlabs here, too. My GI is a fan, so I'm a fan.
    -I know it's wrong. Blame old AOL character limits. Illadelph |
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    Zach MillerZach Miller Member, Rooster Endurance Member, POTM
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    _MurMan_MurMan Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    @duckies I like that setup idea. although we aren't supposed to be using Xlabs.. @TheRealStarky any objection to throwing some tape over any logos on products that TorHans doesn't make, such as the rear carrier?
    Sean Murnane - East Coast Hooligan
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    I'm pretty sure the using Torhans was only if you were using a BTA setup that wasn't a standard bottle. otherwise I'm pretty sure im going to get yell at because I only us standard bottles behind the saddle and BTA, and the cages are not Torhans because I own them already and they don't launch my bottles.
    Nathan Kiser
    Just FYI, you... are also less than mediocre. -TheActualPaulo
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    @_MurMan how the $expletive_deleted do you get through 112 miles without a rear wing? Hell, you need a tool kit plus hydration, there's no way to do that period without something that puts more than a single cage behind the saddle. Pull the sticker off if you have to, but riding on ~48oz of liquid for the long course is one bad hand up from heat stroke.

    @kevinschummer rear wing. Refill the 30 from the rear bottle when you see the SAG station, drop bottle BEFORE you hit the aid volunteers, grab new bottle and put it behind you in an open cage, power out before you even hit the halfway point in the station. Don't get caught in the traffic jam, get what you need, and GTFO.

    If carrying Infinit, and on the long course, run a concentrate bottle in the second carrier to provide two bottles of nutrition from one water hand up. Half and half into the aero30 gets you 48oz of nutrition - enough to finish the bike on, but just barely. You can hyper concentrate (3-4x) your second bottle and pick up water at both stations to get you through, too, if you're a heavy sweater. Careful doing this, though - if you put protein into your infinit blend, it can get foamy in the stomach from the jostling in T2 and the first couple miles of the run. Best to switch to water towards the end if you are at all sensitive to that sort of thing.
    kevinschummerTheo
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    _MurMan_MurMan Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    @Duckies Oh i haven't done a 112 yet. Thats why I like this thread and am looking at different set ups. I was just being a smart ass about the Xlab thing lol But when I get some rear mount I will be taking off or covering up any logos! Cause as I said in another thread, not a fan of running around showing off brands... They didn't give it to me and they certainly don't pay me to use it! (obviously our Sponsors are a little different though!)
    Sean Murnane - East Coast Hooligan
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    The obvious solution is for @HansBielat to start making a BTS cage :) How about it Hans!!??
    _MurManTheo
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    The obvious solution is for @HansBielat to start making a BTS cage :) How about it Hans!!??

    Yup!

    AaronWebstey
    Nathan Kiser
    Just FYI, you... are also less than mediocre. -TheActualPaulo
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    I tried googling the grip strength of the axis cages a bit ago and got one hit....an aerogeeks review which stated "Definitely minimalist, we’d recommend using it as a BTA or downtube cage, where gravity helps retain the bottle along with the arms." I'm not putting anything behind my saddle without an at least claimed 15lbs strength. Abandonment penalties/losing fluid are not in my game plan. Those cages look awesome though.
    Duckies
    Nathan Kiser
    Just FYI, you... are also less than mediocre. -TheActualPaulo
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    I have a Specialized Rib Cage zip tied under my saddle. It takes a deliberate strong yank to get a bottle out of that thing.
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    I tried googling the grip strength of the axis cages a bit ago and got one hit....an aerogeeks review...

    There are two cages, one which is designed for being a behind the saddle cage. I need to test it, but it has this little rubber toothed gripper on the spine of the cage to keep a bottle in place when your placement is closer to horizontal than vertical. I don't know what pull strength is, but I could probably use a gauge to measure it; I'll ask Hans what he's got for data on that, too.

    @nathankiser is that the kind of data you want to see in future articles about stuff like this? I'll try and incorporate that in the future.



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    I do an IM with two bottle @Duckies

    On is concentrated infinit/whatever nutrition (using diluted gels in AZ and worked well). and then other is just electrolyte drink. Aid stations go like this (about 1 an hour or so depending on course):

    suck down everything in the bta before aid station. chuck bottle at very beginning. grab new bottle of electrolyte and place in cage. grab water and then get out of the way. suck some pure water to get the sugar out of my mouth and then pour rest on me. Chuck bottle and pedal on. I've been lucky to not have to slow too much with this method and have gotten efficeint doing this.

    So it is possible, just have to slow a little bit more.

    Thinking about adding vr or somthing similar
    Zach Boring, Overly Average Looking Man
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    AS the bike dunce that I am, this thread has helped me immensely. @Duckies is this the appropriate shopping list? ^:)^

    My TorHans list
    Aero 30
    Aero Mount
    VR Series (repair kit)
    Axis X2(single cage rear mount)
    Bento (maybe)
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    Duckies said:

    I tried googling the grip strength of the axis cages a bit ago and got one hit....an aerogeeks review...

    There are two cages, one which is designed for being a behind the saddle cage. I need to test it, but it has this little rubber toothed gripper on the spine of the cage to keep a bottle in place when your placement is closer to horizontal than vertical. I don't know what pull strength is, but I could probably use a gauge to measure it; I'll ask Hans what he's got for data on that, too.

    @nathankiser is that the kind of data you want to see in future articles about stuff like this? I'll try and incorporate that in the future.



    I'd like to see someone do a behind the seat bottle battle. Ziptie them on and shake the shit out of them and see which ones fall or get some kind of force measuring device and see how much it takes to pull one out. I lost a 1.5 hour infinit bottle using a claimed 5lb grip cage and exploded during a 70.3. So I got the gorilla xt and have yet to lose a bottle since.....

    Being completely subjective, there doesn't look like there is enough material on either of the axis cages to really work behind the saddle.
    kevinschummerTheo
    Nathan Kiser
    Just FYI, you... are also less than mediocre. -TheActualPaulo
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    kevinschummerkevinschummer Member
    edited February 2015
    @nathankiser I agree re the rear cage just in comparing competitor's products and amount of material used. Hoping @HansBielat will stop by and shed some light...

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    @nathankiser I've found it to be HEAVILY dependent upon the cage angle, for me. I was reviewing the Dash TT.9 and ejected a bottle from a Gorilla XT cage during Escape to Miami; was also the same race I lost my flat kit (VR bottle, TAPE THE SEAM between the bottle and the carrier). There isn't a fool-proof solution, in my experience, but there are better ones than others. I'll see if I can't rig something up for a pull strength test for later in the year.

    @kevinschummer I'm a big fan of the Aero30 and the Torhans front hydration solutions, so you'll get no argument from me on the aero mount and the 30. I like my VR flat kit, just make sure it works with your bike (My DA came with it). Can't speak to the Axis cage yet. The Bento is a personal decision - I have it on the test P2, but since I don't use gels it just holds my keys when I ride it. I suppose you could store little baggies of Infinit, too, if you wanted to, and just take water hand ups?
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    Hey all. Sorry to be late for the party. Wife had a baby last week so that is my good excuse.


    A lot of talk on what you need for a half and full Iron. And some good points in my opinion. Let's have a little discussion on this. But let me first stress, everyone is different, everyone has different nutrition needs. I'm a full blown aero nerd and I live in the Northwest. It can get hot but never humid.

    Here is what I use and will always use for half and full Irons. Aero 30 up front, and I use my Vr for nutrition. For a full I fill it with 12oz of hammer gel, some electrolyte packs, and the rest with water. So I get a nice diluted water/gel mixture I just sip throughout the entire bike. I fill it with about 5oz of gel for a half. The Vr is a bite valve system. Bite the spout, squeeze the bottle and you will get a high flow. But only 20oz unless you just use it for a fairing, the Vr is not the best for hydration only in long distance events.

    Now why only a 30 up front for a full IM? Because you usually have an aid station every 10 miles, which is about 28min for fast guys to about 40 min. Now, if you are like me that 30oz is plenty enough sans maybe a race in the south in July. Since this is a private forum I will say this. I fuckin hate rear wings. They are aero bricks on 95% of the athletes, ugly, expensive, hard to reach sometimes, and will usually eject your bottles at a railroad crossing or big expansion joint. Of course that said we are developing a single rear carrier that even I may use but only if I'm racing in the south in July/August (that will never happen fyi) or in training. ;) If you want to carry a standard bottle, on the saddle rails nearly horizontal is pretty aero. Standard bottle on a slippery aero tube frames are a lot of drag.

    What you carry on your bike is aero drag (unless it is TorHans of course) and weight. Anyone remember the girl who got 2nd in Kona in 2011? Anyone ever see her bike when she left T1? She had......a very un-aero front 22oz refillable hydration system with rubber bands keeping it straight (~40 grams of drag, 4 watts, 1.4lbs of fluid), a round bottle on her seat tube (~70 grams of drag, 7watts, 1.4lbs of fluid) a rear wing with 2 bottles (2.75lbs and in my guess with her and the position of that wing lets just say at least 50 grams of aero drag) That is over 5lbs of fluid weight, and probably somewhere about 150 grams of aero drag. Did she need all that? I don't know but she only lost by 2 minutes and Chrissie won that day with just our Aero 20 and a frame bottle.


    My point is take what you need, but what you don't need is only slowing you down.

    Happy to answer any other questions.
    Ryan HeislerkevinschummerHeatherLowmorganstyeryournotuniqueAaronWebsteyZachisrunningSteve Halewskiebe4zippyTheoItsShug
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    PreachSwansonPreachSwanson Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    @HansBielat Congratulations on the baby!
    HansBielat
    TRS Racing
    I'm an angel with an incredible capacity for beer
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    kevinschummerkevinschummer Member
    edited February 2015
    Much appreciated @HansBielat and, more importantly, CONGRATS!

    I'd like to carry a repair kit and plenty of fluids. Just a matter of where to put it all. You and I have the same 'problem' of living in the NW; no humidity to really worry about in races. Carrying enough, w/o knowing what will be enough for me is the main problem.

    So, you wouldn't use the X2 as a wing? Idea of launch of the rear wing? I don't think the bento is big enough for a repair kit, is it?
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    @HansBielat When will this magical rear carrier be released/announced!?!?! Need a beta tester ;) Also, congrats on fatherhood!
    Zach Boring, Overly Average Looking Man

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