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AMA with Jake@ENVE

13

Comments

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    regular_markregular_mark Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    edited August 2017
    noofus said:

    Hi Jake, has there been any testing done on the 7.8s running a disc cover versus not? I currently have 8.9s and am thinking about upgrading to 7.8s and adding a cover for races. Would this be of any benefit to a 23mph avg for long course?

    @Jake Pantone
    Bumping this thread as I would love to get an answer to this question. I have a set of 7.8s on order and need to buy the various things that go with new wheels. Cassette. Tires. Tubes. And a possible disc cover if it would be beneficial. I currently race with a covered rear wheel so I'm used to it.

    Also what tires would you recommend? I currently race with 23mm GP4000sII. Should I stick with that in 25mm? Go with 25mm GPTT? Or possibly the Turbo Cottons?

    I know that at one point @AJ Baucco wind tunnel tested it and his 7.8s were faster than a disc in the rear. My anecdotal experience is that the 7.8s are very fast, especially at yaw. I have ridden many wheels and many discs, and I honestly can feel that the 7.8s are just as fast. I obviously do not have wind tunnel confirmation but they *feel* to be the fastest wheelset I have ever ridden.
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    Is the implication that if I cover the rear of the 7.8 it will be slower than if I left it open? Seems counter to everything else I ever read about discs and coveted rear wheels.
    Beer-fueled triathlete
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    regular_markregular_mark Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    @noofus Yes, that is the implication. I assume there is a reason they do not make a disc, as they know people will pay silly amounts of money for an Enve disc.
    KenElPescadoPeladoTad_M
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    @Dark_mark @noofus Good thread going on here. First, there is a time and a place for a solid rear disc wheel, triathlons are typically not it. If the course is super flat and fast and you'll be averaging around 28-30mph then there is an argument for a solid rear disc. However that is assuming the rear disc is question is the absolute best disc wheel on the market. I won't say which one that is, but you'll see it when we launch ours someday ;). The 7.8 was developed specifically for ironman distance triathletes. It performs head a shoulders above the rest in the real world because unlike most deep wheels it wasn't optimized for 30mph which is standard in most aero testing. Optimizing the wheel for triathlon also means we prioritized stability in dynamic wind conditions over 30 mph aero efficiency. It's a win for everyone but the world's best time trialists and even then, the tradeoffs are minimal. We have put numerous time trial specialist on the top step of the podium who rode the 7.8 in a field full of solid rear disc wheels. Adding a disc cover will negatively impact the wheels efficiency. You'll also add weight which regardless of what has been said in the past about weight no mattering much, it's still a factor. Also, disc cover will hurt stability of the bike/wheel system.

    Finally, and I alluded to this earlier. In our testing, the 7.8 out performs virtually all but one disc wheel on the market. That Z brand wheel is fast, but again, it's for time trialing. We will make a disc wheel, but it's our hope we only see it used for professional time trialing and the occasional olympic or sprint distance tri on a fast course.

    Hope this helps.
    AaronWebsteyKenElPescadoPeladoM_WareHSeeley14Robert RankinEmilyCocksstevejCraig_DnoofuskjrunninTad_M
    Director of Marketing - ENVE Composites
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    @Dark_mark

    Oh interesting. Very interesting.

    Maybe @AJ Baucco could post his data?
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    @Jake Pantone

    Can you share an ETA on the disc wheel?
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    "This is why guys like Maik Twelsiek and Luke McKenzie are going faster than ever"

    You must be watching a different Maik and Luke than everyone else is...
    MattRobert RankinPevashishDaul
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    RashRash Member
    @AaronWebstey I am surprised the site hasn't crashed yet - this thread has been linked as source material over on Slowtwitch.

    Link

    MattStruangAaronWebsteyTad_M
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    Rash said:

    @AaronWebstey I am surprised the site hasn't crashed yet

    It's hosted on the same platform as just coped with the annual Dcrainmaker giveaway! The other tri forum dreams of those traffic figures.
    RashAaronWebsteyHensatc
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    Struang said:

    Rash said:

    @AaronWebstey I am surprised the site hasn't crashed yet

    It's hosted on the same platform as just coped with the annual Dcrainmaker giveaway! The other tri forum dreams of those traffic figures.
    Lol not any more.

    Always glad to get a ST link - fingers crossed it doesn't get deleted!
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    ellsworth53tellsworth53t Member, Rooster Endurance Member
    If you're just joining us from Slowtwitch, why not stick around? Grab a brew. Don't cost nothin.
    http://triroost.com/discussion/257/friday-boozing-open-thoughts-thread#latest

    wchevronM_WareTad_MCraig_DMatt
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    Jake,

    I linked to this thread on our FB page, where a local athlete essentially called you a flat-out liar because you don't publish any of your results. Also something like "because think about it - physics and past studies etc". To silence such claims, do you have plans to release any of your test results and data to the public?
    Tad_M
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    Jake,

    I linked to this thread on our FB page, where a local athlete essentially called you a flat-out liar because you don't publish any of your results. Also something like "because think about it - physics and past studies etc". To silence such claims, do you have plans to release any of your test results and data to the public?

    Sounds like some blowtwitchers follow your FB page.
    AaronWebstey
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    They're IRL contacts, and probable ST members. Somewhat understandable, although I personally would tend to take Jake at face value.
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    "This is why guys like Maik Twelsiek and Luke McKenzie are going faster than ever"

    You must be watching a different Maik and Luke than everyone else is...

    Speaking of, is IMWI a pro race again? Didn’t @ThomasGerlachProTri stir the shit racing it in the past?



    Sorry to go off topic

    AaronWebstey

    Fattest BQ on record--- *allegedly
    2016 (and last) Rev3 Cedar Point champ- don't google the time though
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    Tad_MTad_M Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Level 2 Supporter
    edited August 2017
    Be more careful with your machine settings @AaronWebstey , you screwed up the switch on the right. Now you owe @Jake Pantone a #sworry!

    M_WareCraig_DwchevronAaronWebsteysimonsen77MattMartinBrent_Ridking90Ryan HeislerKenElPescadoPeladomaggieru

    #Sworry 2019 - See you there!
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    MattMatt Member, Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member
  • Options
    @AaronWebstey @Dark_mark Thanks for sharing. Here's the thing with data... You can basically make it say whatever you want to and people know that. We have our own testing protocols, some of which are quite proprietary. We're not about to tell everyone all our secrets. The reality is, ENVE's results speak for themselves. We have the world's foremost thinker when it comes to bicycle aerodynamics on our team developing the shapes we've had such great success with. Also, to whomever said we need to show data, I didn't say there is no place for disc wheels. I simply said that in triathlon, the argument is really tough and from our testing, only 1 disc wheel outperformed the SES 7.8. That disc is heavier and only marginally faster so, the rider needs to decide what is most important to them. Would you rather save 3 grams drag and add 200 grams or gain substantial stability and save 200 grams. It's always a question of tradeoffs. For my money, I'd run open spoke for long distance every time.

    Disc is expected in 2018. Can't be more specific at this time.
    M_WareAaronWebsteyCraig_DKenElPescadoPelado
    Director of Marketing - ENVE Composites
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    Thank you @Jake Pantone ! Really appreciate you taking the time to explain.
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    regular_markregular_mark Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    @Jake Pantone I will let Webstey do literally anything to you for this disc. Literally, anything. You ask and he will do it. You just let me know what you want done to you.
    AaronWebsteysimonsen77Martin
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    AaronWebsteyAaronWebstey Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    I will do anything for Mark
    And yes I will
    Do
    That
    - Meatloaf (paraphrased)
    MattTad_MMartinRobert RankinKenElPescadoPeladoHensatckjrunnin
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    ThomasGerlachProTriThomasGerlachProTri Member, Pro Triathlete


    Speaking of, is IMWI a pro race again? Didn’t @ThomasGerlachProTri stir the shit racing it in the past?

    Yes, and Yes ;)
    Tad_MKenElPescadoPeladoCraig_DRobert Rankinellsworth53t
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    ThomasGerlachProTriThomasGerlachProTri Member, Pro Triathlete

    You can basically make it say whatever you want to and people know that. We have our own testing protocols, some of which are quite proprietary. We're not about to tell everyone all our secrets. The reality is, ENVE's results speak for themselves.



    First things first, I think Enve makes a decent product but I can't understand some of the comments. No Enve's results don't speak for themselves. If you are referring to wins, wheels is such a small part of the entire triathlon equation. Starky is smashing people to bits and is not on ENVEs, so is Lionel Sanders, Andreas Drietz, Kienle, Weiss and others. I don't think you have an uber biker outside of Joseph Middaugh and not sure many know who that is anyway.

    If you were referring to wind tunnel results. Again, no they don't speak for themselves because you can never find anything from you guys. In fact, that is part of why I went to the wind tunnel this year myself to test and publish data on wheelsets and tires. It is a good thing my GoFundme never reached the threshold for me to publically release the Enve data because it doesn't look good for Enve. Definitely some conflicting data about your wheels, specifically the notion of a 25mm being faster than a 23mm. Again although I haven't published the Enve data publically (I have provided it privately), the HED JET data can be found here: (http://www.thomasgerlach.com/2017/04/aero-data-vittoria-corsa-speed.html)

    And just talking about a protocol as proprietary, well that is a load of crap. It isn't about proprietary protocols, that just sounds like a recipe "to get the result we want to get". Transparency is key. And wind tunnel tests like the one I did above basically show that people yes are going to spend their money to test and then we control the message not you. Luckily most people who actually spend there money don't actually share their data... I can't understand that either. but whatever, they feel a need to protect it as some "edge" on their competitors.

    Regardless, wheels and triathlon seems to be in a huge decline. You have HED practically giving away HED JET 6+ wheelsets at $800 now. It seems to be that Zipp and Enve still is the premier brand but personally I have a tough time recommending a $3000 wheelset when a $800 wheelset is for all practical purposes better for the average individual and includes aluminum braking!!! I wrote a whole bunch of other reasons why the wheelset is better for almost everyone here: (http://www.thomasgerlach.com/2017/06/best-ironman-triathlon-aero-wheelset.html)

    Lastly, I think the most important thing to discuss and bring up again is that the fact the ENVE says not to use latex tubes in their wheels. This is going to remove any advantage the wheels can create aerodynamically and shifts it to wheels that can use latex. You can have the brightest aerodynamicists in the world, but that doesn't mean anything if they also don't understand the other factors that play a role in moving fast, including latex. For the readers, buy some Latex tubes from Wiggle / Amazon links above to support triroost, but don't put them in those Enve wheels.

    I won't even touch the watts to spin issue here on disc wheels.
    balsdorfdhrRobert Rankin
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    regular_markregular_mark Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    edited August 2017
    if enve's weren't the best wheels on the market, then why would the greatest cat 5 ever use them? would he even be the greatest cat 5 ever without them? probably, but maybe he'd only be pretty great.
    regular_markAaronWebsteyKenElPescadoPeladoTad_MRobert RankinkjrunninNazgul350r
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    dhrdhr Member
    Dark_mark said:

    if enve's weren't the best wheels on the market, then why would the greatest cat 5 ever use them? would he even be the greatest cat 5 ever without them? probably, but maybe he'd only be pretty great.

    You should use your status as the "Greatest Cat 5 Ever" ™ to have Enve shut @Jake Pantone up. He's not helping.
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    regular_markregular_mark Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Rooster Endurance Officers
    Look, Jake is a salesman for his company, and so he is going to paint a pretty picture for his product.

    His company's wheels lack the use of Biomimickry Sawtooth designs for ultimate AeroBalance, they don't use Hyperfoil *OR* HexFin, and they don't even use ShowStopper brakes and IMpress graphics, so give the guy a break. He might have to use a little hyperbole to sell his product in an arena where other wheel companies just don't do such a thing.
    Mattneil5young
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    Tad_MTad_M Member, Rooster Endurance Member, Level 2 Supporter
    I respect @ThomasGerlachProTri for bringing data, not just conjecture to the table. We all know how tough it is to make test data be relevant, but it's better than talk with no data. Of course I want Enve to publish lots of data, I love data.

    Having said that, I love my new Enve wheels, and let's not forget the peace of mind you get with the extended warranty. I'm never going to be at the pointy end, so my decision, influenced by @Jake Pantone , revolved around warranty and support. I have wheels that I dont hesistate to flog on my gravel training roads. Go Enve!!!!!
    Craig_DAaronWebstey

    #Sworry 2019 - See you there!
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    dhrdhr Member
    Dark_mark said:

    Look, Jake is a salesman for his company, and so he is going to paint a pretty picture for his product.

    I'd argue this is backfiring.

    Well, that's probably overstating. The handful of people here who buy his nonsense and the three handfuls of people on ST who are critical of his nonsense aren't likely to make much of an impact in the company.

    I guess not all salespeople are created equal.
    Robert Rankin
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    dhrdhr Member
    I should say, I'm the owner of an Enve stem and Enve bars. I'm less comfortable with my purchase now.
    Robert Rankin
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    MattMatt Member, Administrator, Rooster Endurance Member
    I did LOL at the comments on ST that said he's not an engineer, only marketing/sales. As if the marketing and engineering departments aren't down the hall from one another and they don't speak to one another...
    Craig_DRobert RankinAaronWebsteyTad_M

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